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Miss E
Active Member
No, I"m OUTRAGED, and rightly so, with righteous anger, that you believe in our God this way.
That he picks and chooses based on NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.
That's like saying Hitler chose to kill this child over that one because he just COULD. oh he just COULD.
That's wicked and wrong and not my God at all. You need to repent sir of your degrading view on our Lord.
Sai
Well-Known Member
Why would I, a created being think to judge God?
Sai
Well-Known Member
Ok fair enough. I see your meaning. Here’s a verse for you to put in your rage pipe. Job was the most Righteous man to walk the earth, hear what he said.
“Then Job answered Jehovah, and said, I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, Things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee: Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”
Job 42:1-6 ASV
Miss E
Active Member
YOUR view of God makes God out to be an UNRIGHTEOUS God. Why would a judge choose to sentence this man to death and not this one when both men murdered? Both men deserve death, but He chose to save just ONE OF THEM.
WHY?
Why would he save you? When you deserve Hell? (don't say grace, please don't say grace alone). I am justified by my faith in Jesus, and THAT is the reason God saves me. That alone, in Christ Alone, having Faith in Christ. That is it. That's the Gospel. And that is what I will preach and I believe in with all my heart and would DIE for that truth of the glorious Bible.
I don't know what crazy minded demon got into your brain, but you need to pray long and hard about your idea of God because it is flawed.
Miss E
Active Member
This just proves God rains down good and bad on the wicked AND good. That's not anything to do with how Job was saved in the end. He believed in God, trusted in who He was. That saved Him.
He had an issue with why he was being punished while he was yet a righteous man.
Don't quote irrelevant scripture to me.
Sai
Well-Known Member
Quit lusting after me.
Miss E
Active Member
I REBUKE YOU and Say to you to get behind me. You've been placed here to provoke me and it's working, Lord forgive me. But I am done talking to you as well sir. I hope you truly know God despite what you think of Him, because if /I/ were God and did choose based on how I felt, I would throw you straight to heck in a hand basket for believing I was that unrighteous in my treatment of my created beings.
To choose to save some and not others? Based on????? NOTHING. That is not justice, that is not mercy, that is pure illogic.
I will just ask a question or two. What if a sinner could know he was saved just because God said it? What if God sent a preacher to a sinner, just any sinner he could find, and that preacher took some time and explained the predicament of sinners and their destiny and and the love and mercy of God for them because they could not rescue themselves from his justice and so he sent his own Son to be the substitute for sinners and who never one time violated his law and then willingly endured the penalty of sin which is the wrath of God and death in a once for all payment and because of his perfect character God accepted it and his anger against sin, and by extension, the sinners, was appeased and he could now forgive any sinner who comes to him in the name of Jesus because God had raised him from the dead and his life can be given to the believer in Christ because he had poured it out on the cross and God poured it out from heaven on all the inhabitants of the earth in such abundance that all they have to do is believe to receive it.. That is the testimony of God
God said faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. He said What saith it, the word is nigh thee, in thy mouth and in thine heart, that is the word of faith which we preach, that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
Then he sets the scope of this wonderful message to sinners.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Why? because he says there is no difference in sinners, but God is rich unto all who call upon him. No exceptions. No difference. All are the same.
Why can't we know we are saved because of this promise of God because God cannot lie? Why isn't that better and more sure than working? Why wouldn't a promise like this to whosoever make pre creation election not matter any longer?
Believing God will give you an internal witness. The Holy Ghost. Eternal Life. The condition for being saved is believing. The preparation for believing is hearing a preacher of the gospel explain salvation through Christ. Sending the preacher is God's business.
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37818
Well-Known Member
What the will of God is believing God's favor which one cannot deserve? Matthew 7:21-23. 2 Corinthians 4:3. Romans 1:16. 1 John 5:1.
@Miss E , Satan is provoking you. He is provoking you to hate the God of the Bible who is Sovereign over all creation and chooses to love one and hate the other.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Does God ever explain the reason He chose Jacob? It certainly isn't because Jacob is morally superior to Esau. In fact, in many ways Esau is the better man. Isaac loved Esau as the first born.
I know you hate the idea that God doesn't tell us his rubric for choosing. As Sovereign King, he doesn't have to tell you. You aren't in control. Satan is provoking you to demand that you be in control.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Does God ever explain the reason He chose Jacob? It certainly isn't because Jacob is morally superior to Esau. In fact, in many ways Esau is the better man. Isaac loved Esau as the first born.
I know you hate the idea that God doesn't tell us his rubric for choosing. As Sovereign King, he doesn't have to tell you. You aren't in control. Satan is provoking you to demand that you be in control.
The Calvinists crutch, yet again...
God ordained the possibility of sin, and knew in advance Adam and Satan would choose to sin. God knew death would enter the world through Adam, and made his choice possible.
We can wrestle with this and question God, but we can't argue that it passed through his will prior to happening.
Titus 3:2-6. ''For we ourselves were also one foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another......." That's what Paul and Titus were like. Are you so much better than them? '.....But when the kindness and the love of God toward us appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us........" It was not because Paul chose Christ, but because Christ chose Paul that he was saved (c.f. Acts of the Apostles 9:15). "......through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." It was not through Paul 'choosing to follow' the Lord Jesus, but through the New Birth ('water and the Spirit' - John 3:5).
The sad fact is that if God left it to people to choose to follow Jesus, the heaven would be empty and hell would be choc-a-bloc full.
John 3:19. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.'
John 5:40. 'But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.'
Romans 3:10-12, 18. 'As it is written, "there is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable............
There is no fear of God before their eyes."'
Romans 9:16. 'So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'
1 Corinthians 1:18, 21. 'For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God...........For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God........'
1 Corinthians 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.'
Ephesians 2:4-5. 'But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
It is because men and women will not, of themselves, trust in Christ for salvation, that God, in His mercy has decreed salvation for a vast crowd of sinners, so vast that no one can count them (Revelation 7:9-10). Because fallen man is dead in trespasses and sins, God gives them new birth. Look now at John 3:1-8.
The teaching of the Lord Jesus as He spoke to Nicodemus could hardly be more clear; the mighty power that gives new life to sinners comes from God, the Holy Spirit, and from Him alone. We see this first of all in the very term, born again. Our Lord could have used a variety of terms for this which Nicodemus might have found easier to understand; “You must start again….”, “…..take a new path”, “…..make a new beginning”. But all these terms involve things that we can do for ourselves. The one event in our lives over which we have no control is our birth. The time, the place, our weight and so forth are absolutely nothing that we ourselves can influence. The time simply comes for us to arrive and we are born.
We can then go on to look at the Greek word translated here as ‘again.’ This word, anothen, can also mean’ from above.' Indeed, that is its meaning in every other instance where it appears in John’s Gospel. For example, later in this very chapter (v31) John uses the word when he says, ‘He who comes from above is above all’.
Anothen appears in Matthew 27:51 when, as Jesus died, ‘The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom’, and in James 1:17 where we are told, ‘…..every perfect gift is from above’. Only in Galatians 4:9 does anothen clearly mean again. Here in John 3:3, most translations have rightly rendered the word as again because of the context. Nicodemus obviously understood it to mean that since he replied (v4), “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter into his mother’s womb and be born a second time?” Now it may well be that the conversation took place in Aramaic, not Greek, but it seems to me that the Apostle John chose the word (under the influence of the Holy Spirit) deliberately to bring out this second meaning. “Nicodemus”, our Lord seems to be saying, “You need a birth that all your learning and religious observance cannot give you; you need a birth that comes from above”.
The same point can be seen in our key verse, ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit’. As we have seen, the word flesh (Gk. sarx), when it is contrasted with Spirit (Gk. pneuma) usually refers to sinful human nature (eg. Rom. 8:4ff). What this verse tells us is that anything that comes from Man, from the flesh, is flawed at source, and to suggest that there can be any human agency in the New Birth is to say that the flesh can give birth to spirit. Why is this? Why is Man so helpless to do anything to make himself right with God? Consider Ephesians 2:1; ‘And you [God] made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins’. Mankind’s condition is one of spiritual death. Now, it is all very well calling on men and women to put their trust in Christ; it is all very well to tell them how wonderful it is to be a Christian, to warn them of the perils of Hell and to entice them with the blessings of Heaven- all these things are right and proper- but if they are dead, then unless Almighty God breathes new life into their hearts, all your efforts will ultimately be in vain because dead people can’t hear. Gospel preaching is certainly of the utmost importance (1Cor 1:21) as we shall see when we come to look at the instrumental means of the New Birth, but only as God uses the preached word to bring sinners to salvation.
Just in case you are not convinced by the evidence presented so far, consider John 1:11-13; ‘He came to His own (i.e. His Jewish compatriots, God’s chosen people under the Old Covenant), and His own did not receive him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God’. Do you see what this is saying? Coming from a Christian family (“blood”) cannot make you born again; nor your own fallen will (“the flesh”); nor being called to the front and having some minister or evangelist pouring water over you, laying hands on you or praying over you (“the will of man”). It is God, and God alone who saves. Look at Romans 9:16; ‘So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God Who shows mercy’, or James 1:18; ‘Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.’. Finally, to see how the New Birth comes about in practice, let us turn to a few verses in Acts:-
Acts 2:47b: ‘And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved’. Who added people to the church? Was it the Apostles, with their signs and wonders (v43), or the people themselves making ‘decisions for Christ’? No, it was God Himself drawing men and women to the Lord Jesus (John 6:44).
Acts 14:48b: ‘And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed’. Not one more nor one fewer, but exactly those to whom God gave new birth.
Acts 16:14: ‘Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God’. Lydia was a God-fearer, a Gentile who attended the Jewish synagogue and tried to follow the moral teaching of the Old Testament, but she still needed to be born again, so did Paul open her heart to respond to God? Or did she open her own heart as she listened to Paul? Not at all. ‘The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken to her by Paul’.
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@Miss E,
There's a bit more that I want to share with you.
John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me........' Here is Definite Atonement. God the Father has given to the Son a people to save, and He has saved them at measureless cost to Himself. The Lord Jesus repeats this in verse 39. 'And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.' This is repeated again in John 17:2. Not one of those whom the Father has given Him will be lost.
This is what our Lord means when He says (John 10:15), "I lay down My life for the sheep.' He does not lay it down for the goats. So who are the sheep? They are those given to the Son by the Father (John 10:29), and they are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." He does not lay down His life for those who will not follow Him, but only for those given to Him by the Father.
'.........and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' Whoever will may come, and our Lord will not cast him out. No one should suppose that he is not one of the elect unless he has been up to heaven, had a look at the Book of Life, and found his name missing! The gate that leads to life may be narrow, but it is open, and the very worst of sinners may enter through it and find salvation if he comes in repentance and faith. Christ will not cast him out.
There's a bit more that I want to share with you.
John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me........' Here is Definite Atonement. God the Father has given to the Son a people to save, and He has saved them at measureless cost to Himself. The Lord Jesus repeats this in verse 39. 'And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.' This is repeated again in John 17:2. Not one of those whom the Father has given Him will be lost.
This is what our Lord means when He says (John 10:15), "I lay down My life for the sheep.' He does not lay it down for the goats. So who are the sheep? They are those given to the Son by the Father (John 10:29), and they are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." He does not lay down His life for those who will not follow Him, but only for those given to Him by the Father.
'.........and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' Whoever will may come, and our Lord will not cast him out. No one should suppose that he is not one of the elect unless he has been up to heaven, had a look at the Book of Life, and found his name missing! The gate that leads to life may be narrow, but it is open, and the very worst of sinners may enter through it and find salvation if he comes in repentance and faith. Christ will not cast him out.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
A couple questions if I may, @Miss E :
Which one do you honestly think describes self-righteous...
1) God saving someone through no effort of their own and they then believe on His Son because God graciously granted them the new birth and repentance from their sins, or...
2) God relying on something that a person did to grant them all the above?
I'll ask it again in a bit different way...
What is the definition of self-righteousness... other than a person performing an act, no matter how small, to gain God's favor and mercy?
When you can answer that honestly and without being blinded by all the rhetoric from both sides, I think you will see what is the real definition of being "self" righteous.
A) God saving someone through no effort of their own...
Or,
B) God granting people eternal life because they "simply believed" on His Son... Or they simply believed, plus were baptized... Or they simply believed, were baptized, confessed Him before men, lived a holy life, paid tithes, etc, etc, etc.
You choose which one is correct according to the Bible.
In the meantime,
God's choosing someone to salvation leaves absolutely nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-7 ).
Anything else, is self-righteousness, my dear sister;
Because anything else relies on what self does to be made righteous, and not strictly on the Lord's forgiving grace and mercy towards someone all by itself.
He either does all the work for us and through us, or only parts of it.
Example:
If one's faith is what God relies on, then we are directly justified by our faith, and He then credits that faith as righteousness, doesn't He ( Romans 4, Romans 5 )?
But God's word doesn't just stop there.
Not only does it says that believers are justified by their faith, it also says that it was given to us, as believers, to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).
It also goes on to tell us where our faith comes from...
Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It originated with Him, and was perfected by Him.
It is the faith "of" ( by or from ) Jesus Christ ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:22 ).
Therefore, in order to explain how someone is justified by faith, we must delve deeper into the Scriptures to answer why some believe and why others do not...
Because not all men have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
Again, all the answers are in there.
Keep reading...
He has a lot to show you.
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If you believe that God makes mistakes (Psalms 18:30 etc.) and that He regrets what He has done (c.f. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Malachi 3:6; James 1:17 etc.) but is unable to do anything about it, then I can understand that you will feel that way.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, George, he did not.
In fact, Genesis 6:5-6 and what is developed there is repeated for us, in principle, in Romans 1:18-32.
Mankind decided, of our own free will, to choose to sin and then we, as a race, fell in love with it...
Even knowing the judgment of God, that death is the penalty for it.
Mankind, evil in thought and deed, continually ( Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9 ) then as now;
But for the grace of God.
Also, I maintain that God does not need anyone to defend Him.
What He does do, is use His preachers and teachers to correct His children with His words.
For example:
Does God choose people to salvation?
Yes ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).
The Bible is clear and the words are clear.
Does God choose people and cause them to approach Him?
Yes. Psalms 65:4.
The Bible is clear and the words are clear.
Does the Lord Jesus, who has power over all flesh, give eternal life to...everyone?
No, He gives eternal life to as many as the Father has given to Him.
John 17:2-3.
The Bible is clear, and again, the words are clear.
What does it take to be given to the Son by the Father...a person's belief of the Gospel?
No, because no man can come to Christ ( believe on Him ) except the Father draw him ( John 6:37-44 ).
The privilege to believe must be given to someone in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ), or they will not believe.
Further, they must be "of" Christ's sheep, or they will not believe ( John 10:26 ), as well as ordained to that gift of eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
Outside of that appointment, or ordination, they will not ever come to belief.
Finally, no man can come to Christ unless it has been given to that person, by the Father, to do so.
John 6:64-65.
There it is, plain and simple for anyone who is looking for it.
Philosophy and ancient Hebrew need not ever be mentioned, much less relied upon, as God's people can know what His words mean ( John 8:43-47, John 10:26-27, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ) by the Spirit that is given to them.
Contrary to what some say, God's word is not composed of "pedestals" or "verses" that someone needs to be knocked off or pulled away from...
It is composed of truths ( many of them contextual ) that people believe because the words themselves, when taken as a whole and understood in their proper contexts, develop those truths.
May God bless you, sir.
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