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hillclimber
New Member
No correction he allegedly prays daily, reads his Bible and seeks God's will but you have absolutely no way to prove this without actually knowing the man personally.
What we can do is look at the fruits and currently the fruits do not look good at all.
For instance Clinton was seen many times entering a Church while on the news yet as Christians nobody here would even go to bat for the old president and argue his Christian values.
Yet our current president is practically worshipped by the conservative Bush supporters in that they REFUSE to see any evidence of wrongdoing on his part and excuse the evidence that they cant explain away.
So please explain to me why torture is an acceptable Christian value that a Christian should participate in?
Apparantly your definition of Christian is quite liberal today. </font>[/QUOTE]This is simply political drivel, or ignorance, born of misinformation.
You are new here Jereome, so my advise is not to judge Christianity by people on here. Too many have non believers viewpoints.
hillclimber
New Member
President Bush displays far more of his faith than any President I've seen. His walk is one of uprightness, seeking God's direction, and unafraid to acknowledge HIM, before the nation and the world. When we, who call on the name of Jesus, put him down, we are in danger, but so arrogant so as to not care a whit. The bald faced arrogance displayed here concerning God and His people is constantly amazing to me.
hillclimber
New Member
Incidentally, I disagree with nearly everything the President has taken a stand on except the war on terror. To disagree is one thing, but to bear false witness is quite another, especially for believers.
hillclimber
New Member
As pious as it may seem, I'm not as concerned for GWB as I am for those that are truly saved and have these evil viewpoints and agendas. GWB has proven he can take the flak so far.
OK, I'll shut up now. Fire away, soldiers of the Cross.
OK, I'll shut up now. Fire away, soldiers of the Cross.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
The man has blasphemed the Lord God by saying that He is the same as the Moslem God Allah. What was the treatment of Israelites in the Old Testament who worshipped Baal?
Wow some people need to stop looking at the spotlights reflecting off of George Bush and turn to the Light of Christ which is based on truth.
Why do you base your opinion on what the news and others have said about George Bush when he his administration has a track record of paying the media for favorable news coverage?
You want proof here goes:
Education Dept. Paid Journalist to Tout Law
U.S. Military Covertly Pays to Run Stories in Iraqi Press
I dont know where your from, but from my neck of the woods thats called propaganda. You know the practice that we were always condemning the soviets for during the cold war.
Next time before you condemn a person for saying something perhaps you need to research the issues before you condemn the person of being a traitor, judgemental, out of God's will etc..
John 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Unlike those that like to call others small minded and arrogant I have done the research and the math and Mr. George Bush is found severely lacking.
Besides whats more arrogant and simple minded than believing that the rest of the world is wrong on its belief on the Iraq war and 9/11 and you and the Bushites are the only ones that are right.
Why do you base your opinion on what the news and others have said about George Bush when he his administration has a track record of paying the media for favorable news coverage?
You want proof here goes:
Education Dept. Paid Journalist to Tout Law
U.S. Military Covertly Pays to Run Stories in Iraqi Press
I dont know where your from, but from my neck of the woods thats called propaganda. You know the practice that we were always condemning the soviets for during the cold war.
Next time before you condemn a person for saying something perhaps you need to research the issues before you condemn the person of being a traitor, judgemental, out of God's will etc..
John 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Unlike those that like to call others small minded and arrogant I have done the research and the math and Mr. George Bush is found severely lacking.
Besides whats more arrogant and simple minded than believing that the rest of the world is wrong on its belief on the Iraq war and 9/11 and you and the Bushites are the only ones that are right.
KenH
Well-Known Member
1. We are all severely lacking. That why Jesus came to bear of the sins of the whole world.
2. The rest of the world was in accord with us concerning Iraq intel prior to the war. The whole world's intel ended up being apparently wrong about WMDs in Iraq.
3. Every country of any note in world affairs throughout history has used propaganda. That is nothing new.
4. I am certainly no Bushite. Just ask Joseph Botwinick on this board.
5. I don't think anyone should come on this board and question another Christian's salvation - whether it is yours, mine, or the president of the United States's.
Romans 14:4 (ESV)
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
2. The rest of the world was in accord with us concerning Iraq intel prior to the war. The whole world's intel ended up being apparently wrong about WMDs in Iraq.
3. Every country of any note in world affairs throughout history has used propaganda. That is nothing new.
4. I am certainly no Bushite. Just ask Joseph Botwinick on this board.
5. I don't think anyone should come on this board and question another Christian's salvation - whether it is yours, mine, or the president of the United States's.
Romans 14:4 (ESV)
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Suppose I said to you that I don't believe that Christ is the only way to approach god and achieve salvation. There are many other paths to god and many different descriptions of him and many different names for him used by those of other faiths. All of these are valid.Originally posted by KenH:
1. We are all severely lacking. That why Jesus came to bear of the sins of the whole world.
2. The rest of the world was in accord with us concerning Iraq intel prior to the war. The whole world's intel ended up being apparently wrong about WMDs in Iraq.
3. Every country of any note in world affairs throughout history has used propaganda. That is nothing new.
4. I am certainly no Bushite. Just ask Joseph Botwinick on this board.
5. I don't think anyone should come on this board and question another Christian's salvation - whether it is yours, mine, or the president of the United States's.
Romans 14:4 (ESV)
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Now. Am I a Christian? If so how do you define a Christian?
hillclimber
New Member
The man has blasphemed the Lord God by saying that He is the same as the Moslem God Allah. What was the treatment of Israelites in the Old Testament who worshipped Baal? </font>[/QUOTE]billy Graham made roughly the same claim. Does that mean he's not a believer?
hillclimber
New Member
jereome, your research needs much fine tuning. And again I say that for you to bear false witness is very serious.
1. So yes that excuses his actions? Since we all have faults lets just go ahead and ignore his especially when they are costing thousands of lives, damaging our credibility abroud, pushing our country further into debt etc...Originally posted by KenH:
1. We are all severely lacking. That why Jesus came to bear of the sins of the whole world.
2. The rest of the world was in accord with us concerning Iraq intel prior to the war. The whole world's intel ended up being apparently wrong about WMDs in Iraq.
3. Every country of any note in world affairs throughout history has used propaganda. That is nothing new.
4. I am certainly no Bushite. Just ask Joseph Botwinick on this board.
5. I don't think anyone should come on this board and question another Christian's salvation - whether it is yours, mine, or the president of the United States's.
Romans 14:4 (ESV)
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
2. Not true in fact before 9/11 all of the intelligence pointed to the fact that Saddam had no WMD program and wasnt even a threat to his neighbors because of the sanctions on his country. Also before the war even the UN weapons inspectors said that Saddam had no weapons program but then again we all have short memories. Here are some links to refresh your memory though.
2001: Powell & Rice Declare Iraq Has No WMD and Is Not a Threat
Seeing is believing.
Hey even the UN weapons inspectors inspected the sites that the intelligence agencies gave as sites to inspect and found nothing but alas their search was cut short due to the U.S. and Brittain taking things into their own hands.
It gives new light to sources that said Bush was pushing for war with Iraq even before 9/11 and that regime change in Iraq was his policy from the beginning.
Clarke's Take On Terror
The secret Downing Street memo
Oh and lets not consider the Project for the New American Century document called, Rebuilding America's Defenses. This document deals with the goals of the PNAC organisation and one of those goals is to transform the U.S. military in order for our country to remain a dominant force throughout the next century. Here is one thing the man said, "Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor."
Hmm kind of convenient that 9/11 came along and gave them an excuse to implement their policies.
Btw guess who some of the founding members of this organisation include Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld or as we would say most of the prominent Neo-Cons in the administration.
You have any doubts to my claims?
Goto the Official PNAC website here:
Welcome to the Project for the New American Century
Next take a look at the Publications and reports page and you will find the document im talking about there and further note look at the Books they feature and the second one is titled, "Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order"
Hmm sounds like they advocate the NWO and are pushing for it. Does that strike you as something that a Christian should be pushing for?
Hmm I could go on for hours and there are thousands of links to why this administration wanted to goto war and used false intelligence data in order to justify the war.
Sounds much like the scientists today that say, "there isnt a God, so ill go search for whatever evidence I find so that I can prove it."
3. So yes since every country in the world likes to use propaganda we should just accept being spoonfed propaganda and then turn around and spread them to others?
4. Unfortunately I voted for Bush and was a Bushite at one time until I actually researched the truth on the matter and found his claim to Christianity just a convenient political tool.
5. You know the Bible gives plenty of references about Judging and all of them deal with the verse that I listed where Jesus said judge righteous judgements. Jesus also said you shall know them by the fruits and later on in the Bible Paul even goes so far as to say that we shouldnt associate with believers that are practicing a lifestyle contrary to the word. If we are to do this then explain to me how it can be done unless we are expected to practice some form of judgement.
Besides I seriously doubt any mans profession of faith that is actively seeking to implement the kingdom of the Anti-christ aka New World Order.
No my friend your research needs much fine tuning, in fact you need to actually do some research.
Also your the only one that is bearing false witness since you wont even bother to actually do the research in the first place.
Remember the News links I posted have never been retracted nor have they been challenged and we all know that if a news source prints something false they are opening themselves up to lawsuits.
So next time prove me wrong instead of calling me a liar without any proof whatsoever.
KenH
Well-Known Member
1. You are wrong. The consensus is, especially after finding out about the oil-for-food scandal after we drove out Saddam Hussein, that the sanctions were on the verge of falling apart. Even Joe Wilson, the husband of Valerie Plame, said that everyone believed that Iraq had WMDs.
2. I have already argued that point with Jonathan Grubbs on this board. You, like him, are taking that quote out of context. PNAC is simply a think tank, just like the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, the American Enterprise Institute, the Brookings Institute, etc.
The quote you are misusing is in a chapter entitled, "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force" and here are some snippets from it to give its flavor:
"To preserve American military
preeminence in the coming decades, the
Department of Defense must move more
aggressively to experiment with new
technologies and operational concepts, and
seek to exploit the emerging revolution in
military affairs. Information technologies,
in particular, are becoming more prevalent
and significant components of modern
military systems. These information technologies
are having the same kind of transforming
effects on military affairs as they
are having in the larger world. The effects
of this military transformation will have
profound implications for how wars are
fought, what kinds of weapons will
dominate the battlefield and, inevitably,
which nations enjoy military preeminence.
Moreover, the Pentagon, constrained by
limited budgets and pressing current
missions, has seen funding for experimentation
and transformation crowded out
in recent years. Spending on military
research and development has been reduced
dramatically over the past decade...
Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and
industrial policy will shape the pace and
content of transformation as much as the
requirements of current missions. A
decision to suspend or terminate aircraft
carrier production, as recommended by this
report and as justified by the clear direction
of military technology, will cause great
upheaval. Likewise, systems entering
production today – the F-22 fighter, for
example – will be in service inventories for
decades to come. Wise management of this
process will consist in large measure of
figuring out the right moments to halt
production of current-paradigm weapons
and shift to radically new designs. The
expense associated with some programs can
make them roadblocks to the larger process
of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter
program, at a total of approximately $200
billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus,
this report advocates a two-stage process of
change – transition and transformation –
over the coming decades..."
- LINK, pp. 50-51 of the document.
As the reader can see, this chapter is about "new technologies and operational concepts", not invading Iraq.
For someone so concerned about the use of propaganda by our federal government, it appears you are throwing stones while living in a glass house.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Considering the venom you are spewing on this board if I had a mind to I would seriously doubt your profession of faith except that:
1. I don't have a mind to as I am hopeful that you have come to Jesus in repentance and faith in the same way that I am hopeful that George W. Bush has come to Jesus in repentance and faith.
2. It is against the rules of this board to question the salvation of others since that is God's business and not ours since we are not the Judge.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
A person who has come to Jesus in repentance and faith. </font>[/QUOTE]By your answer you're saying that you believe that God and Allah are the same and that Moslems are going to Heaven but along a different path. Or did you read my question?
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
The man has blasphemed the Lord God by saying that He is the same as the Moslem God Allah. What was the treatment of Israelites in the Old Testament who worshipped Baal? </font>[/QUOTE]billy Graham made roughly the same claim. Does that mean he's not a believer? </font>[/QUOTE]I beg to differ with you. Billy Graham has never made that statement. If so I'd like to see it documented.