Eric Rolen
New Member
There is no judgement there. I just said I dont appreciate these secular film makers straddling the fence with christianity. Thats not judgement.
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Is Harry Potter and Narnia good for the church?
- Thread starter Boanerges
- Start date
F
Filmproducer
Guest
Once again, how do you know that the actual filmmaker is not a Christian? A filmmaker is different from the distribution company, btw. You have absolutely no idea whether some filmmakers are Christian or not. The company that distributes or promotes the film is not the filmmaker.
You are right. In one church I pastored was a person who knew little about the Bible and wrote materials for the SBC.Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
If blatantly Christian literature was even half as good as Potter, maybe we wouldn't be having these discussions. The fact of the matter is, children don't want to read the stuff on the Christian book shelves. It is sub-standard and a lot of it is complete dribble. It's on a VERY low reading level and the subject matter leaves the imagination mal-nourished. Maybe, rather than trying to refute contemporary secular fiction, Christians should try writing fiction that is actually worth reading.
I'll let your wife do that. By the time I am 35 years in the ground I will be real ugly.Originally posted by tinytim:
(I even had a wiccan cast a spell on me that I would be ugly by the time I was 35!! you be the judge!!!)
I read and enjoy Harry Potter. I have older kids. We have always appropriately supervised what they read, watch, and play. One enjoys HP, one does not. They have both read Shakespeare. Can't say either enjoyed that. LOLOriginally posted by Filmproducer:
......I am curious, those of you who claim that HP is dangerous because it is set in the "real world", do you also forbid your child from reading Shakespeare or Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment?
John's list about Oz, Narnia, etc. makes it sound like it's all or nothing. When I was growing up, The Wizard of Oz WAS questioned in the churches I attended. A librarian in my present church years ago would not let the Narnia books in. But I love them as well as the Lord of the Rings.
It's not all or nothing. Each work should stand on its own. Because someone likes Oz does not make them a hypocrite if they don't like HP.
Go into a Borders store and see the thousands of knockoffs of both HP and the Lord of the Rings. Many would NEVER make it into our house. But that does not make us hypocrites. Philip Pullman novels are downright anti-Christian and abysmal. So is at least some of Piers Anthony.
They are fantasy. That does not make them ok.
I love Lord Peter Wimsey detective novels. But there sure are a lot of such novels I would not have around.
We have video games, but a lot of them are unacceptable to our family.
I do not believe in sheltering children but they do need to be guided.
Texas, John, and Filmproducer, you kind of make it sound like you either accept or reject whole categories of literature. I'm sure you don't mean that, so could you elucidate more on how you draw the line?
Karen
T
TexasSky
Guest
Karen,
The point I was trying to make is that almost every piece of literature has something in it that could be called immoral. For one person to read Harry Potter and declare that those who enjoy it are supporting secular immorality is very judgemental and very hypocritical in that it ignores the immorality or secularism of the books they read, while pointing fingers at the books they do not read - when ALL books have SOME questionable material.
I have yet to see anything, Bible included, that doesn't include a few things that people who are rigid would be able to label "bad."
If I said: "There is a book that my kids read which shows a man sleeping with his employee's wife, getting her pregnant, and then arranging for the husband's murder so he can try to pass the child off as legitimate," people would scream that I shouldn't let my children read trash. If I said, "The same book talks about a man who goes into a graveyard, and speaks to a bunch of skeletons, and brings them back to life." People would be rushing to ban the book, but these things are biblical.
(For those of you who haven't touched the Old Testament in awhile, that's David and Ezekiel I'm talking about.)
The point I was trying to make is that almost every piece of literature has something in it that could be called immoral. For one person to read Harry Potter and declare that those who enjoy it are supporting secular immorality is very judgemental and very hypocritical in that it ignores the immorality or secularism of the books they read, while pointing fingers at the books they do not read - when ALL books have SOME questionable material.
I have yet to see anything, Bible included, that doesn't include a few things that people who are rigid would be able to label "bad."
If I said: "There is a book that my kids read which shows a man sleeping with his employee's wife, getting her pregnant, and then arranging for the husband's murder so he can try to pass the child off as legitimate," people would scream that I shouldn't let my children read trash. If I said, "The same book talks about a man who goes into a graveyard, and speaks to a bunch of skeletons, and brings them back to life." People would be rushing to ban the book, but these things are biblical.
(For those of you who haven't touched the Old Testament in awhile, that's David and Ezekiel I'm talking about.)
F
Filmproducer
Guest
The point I was trying to make is that almost every piece of literature has something in it that could be called immoral. For one person to read Harry Potter and declare that those who enjoy it are supporting secular immorality is very judgemental and very hypocritical in that it ignores the immorality or secularism of the books they read, while pointing fingers at the books they do not read - when ALL books have SOME questionable material.
My thoughts exactly. I find it a little hypocritical to condemn HP, because it is FICTION, dealing with magic, set in the real world, but accept LOTR because it is FICTION, dealing with magic, set in a fantasy world. No one is arguing that parents should not censor what their children read. The arguments I have read focus on not holding others to your same convictions.
My thoughts exactly. I find it a little hypocritical to condemn HP, because it is FICTION, dealing with magic, set in the real world, but accept LOTR because it is FICTION, dealing with magic, set in a fantasy world. No one is arguing that parents should not censor what their children read. The arguments I have read focus on not holding others to your same convictions.
Texas and Filmproducer,Originally posted by Filmproducer:
........when ALL books have SOME questionable material.
My thoughts exactly. I find it a little hypocritical to condemn HP, because it is FICTION, dealing with magic, set in the real world, but accept LOTR because it is FICTION, dealing with magic, set in a fantasy world. No one is arguing that parents should not censor what their children read. The arguments I have read focus on not holding others to your same convictions. [/b]
Thanks for your comments. You are right, all books have something.
Glad you cleared that up, Filmproducer. Because what I HAVE gotten out of some of your comments and those of Texas on Dante and other threads is that parents are either generally stupid or trying too hard to shelter their kids who may very well turn out rebellious because of it and do the forbidden even more.
I'll have to disagree. It is not necessarily hypocritical to like one and condemn the other. It means the rationale is different than you are thinking.
I don't have trouble with people "judging" me for reading HP. If they think it is wrong, fine. We too often SOUND like we think that truth is relative, that what is true for me is not true for you. I can say that something is wrong categorically. That does not mean that I can or should impose it on you. We can sound like "judging" something or somebody is the worst thing we can ever do. Presenting your strong convictions is not holding others to it in any practical sense.
Karen (who reads HP, Shakespeare, LOTR, Narnia,
and goes to movies) LOL
Salamander
New Member
And with all that said, it's no wonder the church is sliding into apostacy. The apostates and their reasoning is against clear Bible teaching to abstain from even the very appearance of evil,(including all the aforementioned witchcraft sources), but is widely accepted in Christendom, but all should consider the big differences between Christianity and Christendom and choose in which realm to dwell.
On the contrary. My contention is that many reject something selectively, but the arguments they use are all-inclusive. For example, those who reject HP says we should reject them because of the topic of sorcery and witchcraft, yet they don't reject the Wizard of Oz or Lord of Rings series.Originally posted by Karen:
Texas, John, and Filmproducer, you kind of make it sound like you either accept or reject whole categories of literature. I'm sure you don't mean that, so could you elucidate more on how you draw the line?
Then, do you condemn the Narnia series? They contain New Age beliefs, drunkenness, and gluttony.Originally posted by Salamander:
And with all that said, it's no wonder the church is sliding into apostacy. The apostates and their reasoning is against clear Bible teaching to abstain from even the very appearance of evil...
Hope of Glory
New Member
One big difference: The Bible doesn't approve (or even condone) such bad behavior. The behavior is condemned. But, it does show that God's grace works in spite of such bad behavior.If I said: "There is a book that my kids read which shows a man sleeping with his employee's wife, getting her pregnant, and then arranging for the husband's murder so he can try to pass the child off as legitimate," people would scream that I shouldn't let my children read trash.
HP is full of bad behavior that is approved because it's all in the name of "good" vs "evil". Necromancy is OK, because it's all just make believe.
(I notice that no one has responded to my question about whether or not a fictitious story about how great pedophelia is would be OK or not. I wonder why?)
Is there any place in the Bible in which bad behavior is approved?
Eric Rolen
New Member
this has been a good discussion on this board of a very controversial subject.
Hey Hope,
There is no way they will ever answer your question the same as they never answered my question on the difference between reading HP with their kids and telling them that witchcraft and sorcery are wrong and reading a story that has lots of perverse sexual fantasies in it and telling their kids that sex outside of marriage is wrong.
You see people **Individual name withheld** who in another post assumed that I made it out that everyone who reads HP will use elicit drugs and perform sorcery has to stretch things out and grasp at straws and cannot see that the things that are obviously not Godly and yet are viewed are innocent can and MAY (you read that part , I said may) turn into a far worse situation later on or worse they will view more and more worldly situations as harmless entertainment which will lead to farless faith in God and a far more self-fulfilling attitude.
One more reason they will never answer your question is that it is easier for them to make statements about what they think then to actually answer the questions and engage in GENERAL BAPTIST DISCUSSIONS. We need to turn this post into General Baptist Statements. You see the people who have opposed the HP, Lord of the rings and OZ and heavnen forbid the Narnia series have brought in credible biblical reasons to oppose these movies and books and the accepting side has only brought in how innocent it is and with good parental guidance as you read these godless books and movies they will completely understand that its not real and is completely safe even though God hates sorcery and witchcraft.
In America you can be thrown in jail for just knowing someone has commited a crime and not have reported it to authorities it is called being an accesory to a crime. Condoning crime and harboring criminals makes you just as guilty as the one doing the deed. I am not calling anyone criminals here but harboring people and supporting people who write materials not just containing but the whole story line is focused on sorcery and divinations and is aimed directly at entertaining your children are condoning Godless behavior.
Not answering these legitimate questions are their way of avoiding any conviction what so ever.
Does God approve of sorcery, witchcraft or divination? Yes or No (check one)
If you answered no then here is your next question.
Does God make exceptions to His rules if your only entertaining yourself with the things He has said is an abomination and not actually doing the act itself? For example: I will go to a porn movie and it is okay becaus I am not actually having sex with these people but it is fine because I am just watching and if they are wearing funny costumes with masks and do silly things with props and digital animation then all the better because people in real life do not really do that.
The real life story is that people do practice witchcraft and sorcery and if there were not something to all of it and detremental to our well being then God would not have said so over 4,000 years ago. Funny how the rules can change over thousands of years. I would like to know at what point it became okay to become an accesory to sorcery?
[ December 01, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
There is no way they will ever answer your question the same as they never answered my question on the difference between reading HP with their kids and telling them that witchcraft and sorcery are wrong and reading a story that has lots of perverse sexual fantasies in it and telling their kids that sex outside of marriage is wrong.
You see people **Individual name withheld** who in another post assumed that I made it out that everyone who reads HP will use elicit drugs and perform sorcery has to stretch things out and grasp at straws and cannot see that the things that are obviously not Godly and yet are viewed are innocent can and MAY (you read that part , I said may) turn into a far worse situation later on or worse they will view more and more worldly situations as harmless entertainment which will lead to farless faith in God and a far more self-fulfilling attitude.
One more reason they will never answer your question is that it is easier for them to make statements about what they think then to actually answer the questions and engage in GENERAL BAPTIST DISCUSSIONS. We need to turn this post into General Baptist Statements. You see the people who have opposed the HP, Lord of the rings and OZ and heavnen forbid the Narnia series have brought in credible biblical reasons to oppose these movies and books and the accepting side has only brought in how innocent it is and with good parental guidance as you read these godless books and movies they will completely understand that its not real and is completely safe even though God hates sorcery and witchcraft.
In America you can be thrown in jail for just knowing someone has commited a crime and not have reported it to authorities it is called being an accesory to a crime. Condoning crime and harboring criminals makes you just as guilty as the one doing the deed. I am not calling anyone criminals here but harboring people and supporting people who write materials not just containing but the whole story line is focused on sorcery and divinations and is aimed directly at entertaining your children are condoning Godless behavior.
Not answering these legitimate questions are their way of avoiding any conviction what so ever.
Does God approve of sorcery, witchcraft or divination? Yes or No (check one)
If you answered no then here is your next question.
Does God make exceptions to His rules if your only entertaining yourself with the things He has said is an abomination and not actually doing the act itself? For example: I will go to a porn movie and it is okay becaus I am not actually having sex with these people but it is fine because I am just watching and if they are wearing funny costumes with masks and do silly things with props and digital animation then all the better because people in real life do not really do that.
The real life story is that people do practice witchcraft and sorcery and if there were not something to all of it and detremental to our well being then God would not have said so over 4,000 years ago. Funny how the rules can change over thousands of years. I would like to know at what point it became okay to become an accesory to sorcery?
[ December 01, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
F
Filmproducer
Guest
I believe your questions have been answered. The fact of the matter is, as TS pointed out, something immoral can be found in almost all works of fiction. Will you prohibit your child from reading all fiction? What about the newspaper? Immorality abounds in the news also? As for the pedaphelia book or sexual fantasy book, there is a difference. HP is a children's book, these others would never be considered children's books, therefore no parent in their right mind would read said books with their children. I have no problem with using fiction as form of entertainment. I do not use fiction to teach my children spiritual doctrine, for that there is the Bible. Fiction is a way for them to sharpen their imagination, the bible is a way for them to grow spiritually. For that matter, I do not even allow my son to read HP, at least at this point in time. He has an active imagination, and is a writer of sorts, himself. He is an avid reader who tends to create stories that resemble some aspects of the books he reads.
We talk about this all the time, and I feel that until he is a little more mature, (he is nine), and he has a better grasp at his own stories and characters, he cannot read HP. I, however, find no fault with parents who do allow their children to read HP, as each parent knows what is best for their child. I'm glad you have strong convictions, and you are holding fast to them, but do not place your convictions on others. As John of Japan stated earlier, we need to have discernment in the choice of books we read, or allow our children to read. Just because someone's convictions are different then yours does not mean they are not convicted, or are avoiding the truth.
We talk about this all the time, and I feel that until he is a little more mature, (he is nine), and he has a better grasp at his own stories and characters, he cannot read HP. I, however, find no fault with parents who do allow their children to read HP, as each parent knows what is best for their child. I'm glad you have strong convictions, and you are holding fast to them, but do not place your convictions on others. As John of Japan stated earlier, we need to have discernment in the choice of books we read, or allow our children to read. Just because someone's convictions are different then yours does not mean they are not convicted, or are avoiding the truth.
Approved? No. Mentioned, but not dealt with, yes. Solomon's polyamory, for example.Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Is there any place in the Bible in which bad behavior is approved?
I believe I dealt with that issue by asking if we should condemn Narnia for its depiction of undersaged drunkenness as well as New Age beliefs, or Lord of the Rings for its abundant use of sorcery and wizardry. It's clear that those who agree with you are being selective about that which they condemn.Originally posted by fatbacker:
... they never answered my question on the difference between reading HP with their kids and telling them that witchcraft and sorcery are wrong and reading a story that has lots of perverse sexual fantasies in it and telling their kids that sex outside of marriage is wrong.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Finding immorality in works of fiction is not the problem; the way it's treated is the problem. The Bible contains much immorality, but the behavior is condemned. There's a difference between a TV show about adulteresses who repent and overcome their situations and a TV show about a bunch of housewives who are put on a pedestal because they run around figuring out new ways to commit adultery.The fact of the matter is, as TS pointed out, something immoral can be found in almost all works of fiction.
I will prohibit my child from reading all fiction work that glorifies immoral behavior.Will you prohibit your child from reading all fiction? What about the newspaper? Immorality abounds in the news also?
First of all, even the author stated that the HP books were never intended to be children's books.As for the pedaphelia book or sexual fantasy book, there is a difference. HP is a children's book, these others would never be considered children's books
Second of all, would it then be OK to write a book in which a 12 year old girl had an affair with a 30 year old married man from her perspective of love and how great it was? We could dress it up in play acting and costumes and child-like fantasies. It would then be a "children's" book. Would that make it OK? If not, why not?
There is nothing in the Bible that approves bad behavior. The behavior itself is condemned, but the grace of God abounds despite this bad behavior. In HP, the bad behavior is not only approved, it is praised and something to be achieved.
JohnV you never even remotley answered my question since I said do not answer my question with a question which is typical for a side that has no biblical grounds to stand on. You really need to read the post more carefully. I would like an answer not a question.
So let me ask a more simplified question that does not need to be answered with a question.
Does God approve of witchcraft, sorcery or divintaion in any form? Yes or no
So let me ask a more simplified question that does not need to be answered with a question.
Does God approve of witchcraft, sorcery or divintaion in any form? Yes or no
I will respond. No God does NOT approve of witchcraft, sorcery or divination, but Harry Potter is obviously make-believe and has no similarities to real world witch-craft. Come on, riding brooms, casting spells with a magic wand, flying cars. Its make-believe....fantasy; plus there is a definite 'right from wrong' theme.
Now, as far as the actual thread's title, is it good for the church...NO I would not have the HP books in the church library, or even discuss them in church, if that is what you mean. No more than I would discuss Santa Claus at Christmas, but it wouldn't stop me from make believe Santa Claus at home for the kids (who are taught the REAL meaning of Christmas and the fact that Santa is make-believe--fantasy).