Is healthcare a right or a privilege II

[Rob_BW]

No one forces people to work for the NHS here: they apply for a job with the NHS same as everywhere else. Nice of you to compare my wife, who works for the NHS, to a slave BTW...

Why are you slandering me by saying I compared your wife to a slave?

And why would you say that someone has a right to your wife's labor? It seems to me that she has entered into a contract to provide services for a fee, and has the right to quit if the deal becomes unsatisfactory.

 

[Rob_BW]

You can choose to let these people die. My faith compels me to help them.

It's interesting that you used the word compel.

If, hypothetically, an entire generation decided tbey did not want to work in healthcare, should the government "compel" some people to do the work?

 

[Alcott]

It's interesting that you used the word compel.

If, hypothetically, an entire generation decided tbey did not want to work in healthcare, should the government "compel" some people to do the work?

I may not know as much about the particular point, but it's more obvious that "compelling" is a function of government. G compels you to pay it money or go to jail, compels minors of a certain age to attend school (unless, of course, it decides they are unworthy and then compels them to stay away), it compelled states by force to remain in the union I.voluntarily...

But this stupid talk that sod want to forbid healthcare to the poor-- why is the emphasis on obam's bill instead of the facts of whether the health of the poor has actually improved, with $6000 deductables and threats of penalties for not *buying* care?

 

[Matt Black]

Why are you slandering me by saying I compared your wife to a slave?

Because, like the doctor in the OP on which you made the comment, she is obliged to treat all those who come before her needing treatment. You said that you'd fought a civil war over that - a clear reference to slavery if ever there was one. The obvious conclusion is there to be drawn; one doesn't need to spell it out.

And why would you say that someone has a right to your wife's labor? It seems to me that she has entered into a contract to provide services for a fee, and has the right to quit if the deal becomes unsatisfactory.

As long as she has that job, her patients have the right to her labour. She gets paid for it and she can quit the job - which is where your slavery analogy is flawed in the first place - but whilst she has it she is obliged to discharge her duty of care to her patients. It was the same when I worked in criminal defence - I couldn't refuse to take on a client just because I didn't like the cut of their jib, or I didn't like what they were accused of.

This isn't terribly controversial and is far from limited to healthcare workers and lawyers. It's one of the reasons we have anti-discrimination rules in the service industries.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why are you slandering me by saying I compared your wife to a slave?

And why would you say that someone has a right to your wife's labor? It seems to me that she has entered into a contract to provide services for a fee, and has the right to quit if the deal becomes unsatisfactory.

He is a far left extremist and he only knows how to twist your words to extremist levels. Its best to know what you are dealing with. Not rational.

 

[Matt Black]

Another post that plays the man, not the ball! Way to go, Rev!!

 

[Rob_BW]

Because, like the doctor in the OP on which you made the comment, she is obliged to treat all those who come before her needing treatment. You said that you'd fought a civil war over that - a clear reference to slavery if ever there was one. The obvious conclusion is there to be drawn; one doesn't need to spell it out.

As long as she has that job, her patients have the right to her labour. She gets paid for it and she can quit the job - which is where your slavery analogy is flawed in the first place - but whilst she has it she is obliged to discharge her duty of care to her patients. It was the same when I worked in criminal defence - I couldn't refuse to take on a client just because I didn't like the cut of their jib, or I didn't like what they were accused of.

This isn't terribly controversial and is far from limited to healthcare workers and lawyers. It's one of the reasons we have anti-discrimination rules in the service industries.

Discrimination by a governmental or civilian hospital is a completely different issue.

And discussing jobs where a person is free to quit misses my point completely. Obviously if your wife (or mine for that matter, since she is a nurse at a .gov hospital) decides to quit, the .gov cannot wrangle them back to work under the grounds that "healthcare is a right."

Healthcare is made up of goods and services, provided by businesses and people. I do not have a right to someone else's goods or labor, period.

 

[Matt Black]

Then why did you make the civil war analogy?

 

[Rob_BW]

Then why did you make the civil war analogy?

Uh, because slavery is when someone claims a right to someone else's labor. A "right" to healthcare means someone is claiming a right to someone else's labor or the product of their labor

Our wives can quit, hence they obviously aren't slaves, now are they?

 

[Matt Black]

So is healthcare free at the point of delivery slavery in your view?

 

[Rob_BW]

So is healthcare free at the point of delivery slavery in your view?

Don't confuse charity with rights, is my response.

If a person, group, or nation wants to be charitable (and they can responsibly pay for it), then good for them.

 

[Revmitchell]

So is healthcare free at the point of delivery slavery in your view?

No health care free because someone else was forced to work to provide the money for it is slavery.

 

[Matt Black]

Ok, then: in your view, is the right to medical treatment free at the point of delivery and funded by national taxation slavery?

[ETA: cp with the Rev, to whom I therefore ask: is someone being forced to work to fund the armed services slavery then also?]

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok, then: in your view, is the right to medical treatment free at the point of delivery and funded by national taxation slavery?

No, making someone else work to provide the money for it is.

 

[Matt Black]

No health care free because someone else was forced to work to provide the money for it is slavery.

Alternatively, who is being 'forced to work' here?

 

[Matt Black]

No, making someone else work to provide the money for it is.

Again, who is being 'made to work '? People have a choice about whether to take a job, surely?

 

[Revmitchell]

Alternatively, who is being 'forced to work' here?

Where does the money come from to pay for someone else's "free" healthcare?

 

[Matt Black]

The same place money comes from to pay for someone else's law enforcement and defence.

 

[Rob_BW]

Ok, then: in your view, is the right to medical treatment free at the point of delivery and funded by national taxation slavery?

[ETA: cp with the Rev, to whom I therefore ask: is someone being forced to work to fund the armed services slavery then also?]

I have already answered that question.

If the people can quit, they aren't slaves, now are they?

As far as the military, if you want to discuss them, start another thread.

 

[Matt Black]

Ok, so the right to healthcare free at the point of delivery does not result in slavery. Good; we're agreed on that point