Diggin in da Word
New Member
I also believe it is the Bible one must agree with, sfiC. And that is why I say many who twist the Word to fit their own religious views are not truly saved.
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Is hell eternal?
- Thread starter Boanerges
- Start date
I think I know what you mean, DITW, but...
I think there are some points Scripture makes that we can have wrong (whether it's a mis-interpretation, our own prejudice, spiritual immaturity, or parroting someone who has it wrong), yet our salvation isn't under question.
Maybe you can clarify what you mean for me...
(note: not trying to hijack...just wanting to understand what he means here, relating to one's view of hell).
Thanks,
RB
I think there are some points Scripture makes that we can have wrong (whether it's a mis-interpretation, our own prejudice, spiritual immaturity, or parroting someone who has it wrong), yet our salvation isn't under question.
Maybe you can clarify what you mean for me...
(note: not trying to hijack...just wanting to understand what he means here, relating to one's view of hell).
Thanks,
RB
Diggin in da Word
New Member
rbell,
When the Bible plainly says something such as our Lord telling that hell is eternal, telling that the person sent there for all eternity and that in hell that person is tormented, not killed, where their worm dieth not, nor is the fire quenched and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever, I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said.
Jesus never once told a lie, else He would not be the spotless and sinless Lamb.
Hell is a reality, Hell is eternal. Man will not be annihilated in hell.
When one twists God's Word to say man will be annihilated, one has changed the truth into a lie.
When the Bible plainly says something such as our Lord telling that hell is eternal, telling that the person sent there for all eternity and that in hell that person is tormented, not killed, where their worm dieth not, nor is the fire quenched and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever, I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said.
Jesus never once told a lie, else He would not be the spotless and sinless Lamb.
Hell is a reality, Hell is eternal. Man will not be annihilated in hell.
When one twists God's Word to say man will be annihilated, one has changed the truth into a lie.
thanks for the clarification.
For the record, I agree with what you say about hell...that it is eternal.
I don't think I would necessarily question the salvation of those who hold to an annihialational view...I guess I'd be more bothered depending on their motive. If they feel they are coming to this view through a scriptural justification, I don't agree...but it botheres me less than the oft-said, "I just don't think a loving God would do that to someone."
For the record, I agree with what you say about hell...that it is eternal.
I don't think I would necessarily question the salvation of those who hold to an annihialational view...I guess I'd be more bothered depending on their motive. If they feel they are coming to this view through a scriptural justification, I don't agree...but it botheres me less than the oft-said, "I just don't think a loving God would do that to someone."
Diggin in da Word
New Member
I think the problem is that many will face Christ at the judgment thinking they were saved who have twisted the scripture to justify their own sins.
One reason I question their salvation is the scripture in Revelation that says 'all liars will be cast into the lake of fire'.
If one says that hell is not eternal, or that those in hell are not tormented forever, they have changed the truth of God's Word into a lie. Now, if God said, 'Well, they believed in my Son, so I am letting them in even though they lied constantly about what my Son said', then God would be unfaithful to His Word
One reason I question their salvation is the scripture in Revelation that says 'all liars will be cast into the lake of fire'.
If one says that hell is not eternal, or that those in hell are not tormented forever, they have changed the truth of God's Word into a lie. Now, if God said, 'Well, they believed in my Son, so I am letting them in even though they lied constantly about what my Son said', then God would be unfaithful to His Word
We will disagree on this point, DITW. Revelation 21:8 does indeed say that "liars will have their part in the lake of fire." But in context, it is juxtaposed against those who thirst, and are rewarded with eternal life.
I take "liars" (pseudesin) to mean those who have denied that Christ is the way, not those who have a wrong theology of hell.
I'm just very careful about declaring that someone is not saved...
I take "liars" (pseudesin) to mean those who have denied that Christ is the way, not those who have a wrong theology of hell.
I'm just very careful about declaring that someone is not saved...
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Bob wrote:
You also seem to have difficulty with this exegeitcal review of Matt 10 asking about the primary audience and the fact that "destroy" is being used to describe what God does to BOTH Body AND soul in hell fire the way the wicked today can destroy JUST the body (the way Peter says DESTROY is to REDUCE TO ASHES)
eloidalmanutha:
first rule - when you look at the Word to seek out a meaning of terms used, you need to find the same word and how it's used in other texts. Destroy also means to perish and to lose. Here are some scripts to help - notice that destroy does not necessarily mean turn to ash - that is just one of the meanings:
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Luk 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Bob wrote:
#1. What would the primary intended readers of Matt 10 have accepted as “in this life” the wicked ARE able to “Destroy the body” to “Kill the body”. Would they not think of it as “really kill the body” or would they see themselves in “ever-living-physical bodies” that the wicked NOT able to kill much less destroy??
Answer: They would obviously accept that their earthly bodies ARE killed, tormented and even destroyed in this life!! Destroyed as in “killed and turned into ashes”
eloidalmanutha:
my answer would be who cares? the point is NOT that the body is destroyed or killed, but that the person is not lost to eternal damnation where there is no salvation of body and or soul, but eternal torment.
Not to mention, that not all Christians who are killed are reduced to ashes. Some die by the sword or are crucified or are hung or are stoned or are beat to death. That is destruction of the body as well. Destruction = death in these cases.
Bob wrote:
#2. Would the first order primary audience have concluded that to DESTROY the body goes beyond just KILLING it and leaving it in tact as a corpse? Would they conclude that DESTORY means to not only kill – but ALSO to destroy the remains of the body!?? Indeed they would!
Bottom line is that if you could bring yourself to embrace the texts above and to answer these two very direct questions - we would move ahead - I am sure of it.
eloidalmanutha:
Again, my response is - once the body is dead who cares what is done with it? The point of the text is not what is done with the body in this age but that you don't lose your life because you do not belong to Jesus and are destroyed body and soul in hell = no longer living as intended, destroyed, loss of living as in quality life [in Christ], burning interminably without end.
Bob wrote:
I believe as Peter states that our focus should be set COMPLETELY on that future event of Christ's return.
I believe our ONLY comfort regarding the dEAD in Christ is what Paul stated in 1Thess 4 "THEREFORE comfort one another with these words" and there we see the subject of the rapture.
I believe Christ was CORRECT when He pointed us in John 14:1-3 at HIS RETURN as being the point when HE "receives US to Himself"!!
eloidalmantha:
uh oh, did I hear the word rapture? . . . . let's not go there
Bob wrote:
You say "destroy means to CONTINUE to function and CONTINUE to LIVE FOREVER but in loss and in torment"
eloidalmanutha:
yup
Bob wrote:
By contrast Peter defines destory as "reduce to ashes" -- to which you simply say "oh no it is not".
eloidalmanutha:
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
reduce to ashes in this age.
Bob wrote:
Your definition contradicts Matt 10 the words of Christ and it contradicts Peter
eloidalmanutha:
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
destroy in hell. "hell" is the object of destroy, just as "turn to ashes" is the object of destroy in the 2 Peter text. two different definitions for destroy. Simple english grammar based on correct word definition. no where does Scripture say "turn to ashes in hell".
You also seem to have difficulty with this exegeitcal review of Matt 10 asking about the primary audience and the fact that "destroy" is being used to describe what God does to BOTH Body AND soul in hell fire the way the wicked today can destroy JUST the body (the way Peter says DESTROY is to REDUCE TO ASHES)
eloidalmanutha:
first rule - when you look at the Word to seek out a meaning of terms used, you need to find the same word and how it's used in other texts. Destroy also means to perish and to lose. Here are some scripts to help - notice that destroy does not necessarily mean turn to ash - that is just one of the meanings:
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Luk 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Bob wrote:
#1. What would the primary intended readers of Matt 10 have accepted as “in this life” the wicked ARE able to “Destroy the body” to “Kill the body”. Would they not think of it as “really kill the body” or would they see themselves in “ever-living-physical bodies” that the wicked NOT able to kill much less destroy??
Answer: They would obviously accept that their earthly bodies ARE killed, tormented and even destroyed in this life!! Destroyed as in “killed and turned into ashes”
eloidalmanutha:
my answer would be who cares? the point is NOT that the body is destroyed or killed, but that the person is not lost to eternal damnation where there is no salvation of body and or soul, but eternal torment.
Not to mention, that not all Christians who are killed are reduced to ashes. Some die by the sword or are crucified or are hung or are stoned or are beat to death. That is destruction of the body as well. Destruction = death in these cases.
Bob wrote:
#2. Would the first order primary audience have concluded that to DESTROY the body goes beyond just KILLING it and leaving it in tact as a corpse? Would they conclude that DESTORY means to not only kill – but ALSO to destroy the remains of the body!?? Indeed they would!
Bottom line is that if you could bring yourself to embrace the texts above and to answer these two very direct questions - we would move ahead - I am sure of it.
eloidalmanutha:
Again, my response is - once the body is dead who cares what is done with it? The point of the text is not what is done with the body in this age but that you don't lose your life because you do not belong to Jesus and are destroyed body and soul in hell = no longer living as intended, destroyed, loss of living as in quality life [in Christ], burning interminably without end.
Bob wrote:
I believe as Peter states that our focus should be set COMPLETELY on that future event of Christ's return.
I believe our ONLY comfort regarding the dEAD in Christ is what Paul stated in 1Thess 4 "THEREFORE comfort one another with these words" and there we see the subject of the rapture.
I believe Christ was CORRECT when He pointed us in John 14:1-3 at HIS RETURN as being the point when HE "receives US to Himself"!!
eloidalmantha:
uh oh, did I hear the word rapture? . . . . let's not go there
Bob wrote:
You say "destroy means to CONTINUE to function and CONTINUE to LIVE FOREVER but in loss and in torment"
eloidalmanutha:
yup
Bob wrote:
By contrast Peter defines destory as "reduce to ashes" -- to which you simply say "oh no it is not".
eloidalmanutha:
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
reduce to ashes in this age.
Bob wrote:
Your definition contradicts Matt 10 the words of Christ and it contradicts Peter
eloidalmanutha:
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
destroy in hell. "hell" is the object of destroy, just as "turn to ashes" is the object of destroy in the 2 Peter text. two different definitions for destroy. Simple english grammar based on correct word definition. no where does Scripture say "turn to ashes in hell".
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rule #1.
When looking AT Matt 10 you must look AT the details in Matt 10.
So I repeatedly point out that the destruction of the body that Christ says IS DONE in this world (dust to dust and ashes to ashes) is NOT defined as "the physical body living forever but with less joy and more torment". You keep ignoring the first clause in Christ's argument - that the wicked DO have the power to literally kill, literally destroy the earthly body (as in NOT causing it to LIVE FOREVER in torment and then calling that KILL or DESTROY).
Rule #2.
See how that concept of DESTROY is used in other texts. 2Peter 2 was used to show this very point Destroy by "Turning to ASHES" the SAME concept for the ETERNAL FIRE that burns Sodom. This is percisely the context we want - ETERNAL fire and the definition of "DESTROY" between Peter and Jude they spell it out "explicitly".
YOU keep ignoring rule #1 and #2 of Exegesis.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So far so good.
Jude and Peter say The CITIES (in this case the people AND the cities) were "reduced to ashes" but Peter said "DESTROYED by REDUCING them to ashes" and this is his point about the ETERNAL FIRE that burned "The cities".
This is exactly the opposite of your "STILL LIVE ON forever but in more pain and less joy".
Obviously.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.
They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..
[/QUOTE]
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Dear Bob,
You need a broader brush. You cannot only use context, you have to use definition of the word based on other usages as well in order to get the whole picture. The other texts referring to the eternal punishment aspect have to be factored in until you see the big picture. Scripture will interpret Scripture
Yeah, I know, you think you are doing that. So do I. It's been real . . . thanx for the challenge - I learned something anyway, always do . . .
until next time . . .
You need a broader brush. You cannot only use context, you have to use definition of the word based on other usages as well in order to get the whole picture. The other texts referring to the eternal punishment aspect have to be factored in until you see the big picture. Scripture will interpret Scripture
Yeah, I know, you think you are doing that. So do I. It's been real . . . thanx for the challenge - I learned something anyway, always do . . .
until next time . . .
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Before we close - one quick question - a moment of honesty please.
When you first came to this subject on this thread did you really think that your position was placing "your definition' of "destroy" in direct oppostion to 2Peter 2:6? Had you already looked long and hard at 2Peter 2:6 before coming up with the definition of destroy that contradicts it?
When you first came here had you already looked at the fact that Matt 10 claims that IN THIS LIFE we DO see the body killed and that IT DOES 'return to dust and ashes" and that God was claiming to do IN fiery hell what wicked men In THIS LIFE can ONLY do to the physical body. ONLY GOD was claiming to do it to BOTH body and soul NOT JUST BODY!.
Had you already wrestled with these points and found a workable solution?
From your responses on this thread it appears that that the answer is 'no'.
In Christ,
Bob
When you first came to this subject on this thread did you really think that your position was placing "your definition' of "destroy" in direct oppostion to 2Peter 2:6? Had you already looked long and hard at 2Peter 2:6 before coming up with the definition of destroy that contradicts it?
When you first came here had you already looked at the fact that Matt 10 claims that IN THIS LIFE we DO see the body killed and that IT DOES 'return to dust and ashes" and that God was claiming to do IN fiery hell what wicked men In THIS LIFE can ONLY do to the physical body. ONLY GOD was claiming to do it to BOTH body and soul NOT JUST BODY!.
Had you already wrestled with these points and found a workable solution?
From your responses on this thread it appears that that the answer is 'no'.
In Christ,
Bob
eloidalmanutha
New Member
I always did like persistance, I am sort of the same mold
Honestly, I am a seeker of truth. I will pay any price for it and it has cost me. So yes, I always play out different views, always weighing them against the Word. Not just a few verses, but I try to stand back and take a whole view and look from Gen through Rev. I sort of do this scan method in my head and then I hit a concordance and look up words, contexts, etc.
I usually let things settle, let God start probing and bringing scripts to mind. I never force pieces to fit. If something doesn't make sense, I wait. If I don't see it clear, or have a sense of being unsettled, I leave it alone.
In this case, I can't make your view fit. Perhaps because we come from different perceptions of God and His Word. Personally, I knew God as Judge first. Then I knew Him as Love. So my "mix" is always going to see life from the critical, probing for error. I also seek for balance. And I know that God is not a God of confusion. He has it all worked out perfectly.
Your view does not make sense to me. I tend to think you are focussed too tightly on one aspect instead of letting the Word direct your position to line up with it, other than the other way around. I have made the same mistake many times. Perhaps I did not do a great job of presenting what I believe to be the truth. I do not see your definition of destroy in 2 Peter as a viable answer when it's compared to the other texts. That is the deciding point for me. As always, in the end, God has the "final answer"
eloidalmanutha
New Member
ok, Bob - let me take another stab at it. I think I am getting an idea of where you are coming from and why we are not on the same page. You are taking the Jude text and using it as a template for the lake of fire or the 2nd death. From my perspective, Jude is using the incident as an example of what the fires of hell are like, but because they fell on the cities in this realm were consumed and turned to ashes, while in reality of the age to come, the fire will be that intense and that tormenting, but the inhabitants will not die - that is the torment of hell. annihilation would be an end to torment and it is obvious from the other scripts that hell will be eternal, not temporary.
If hell was exactly as the template that you prescribe, there would be no necessity for the residents of the cities to be resurrected because they would have already been "judged" and their destiny complete and finalized. However; it is clear that this is not so. For Rev 20 says that ALL people, from the sea, death and hell will stand before the White Throne Judgment. Also, in Phil, we have this statement:
Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
that would be confirmation for me that all those who have ever lived, no matter how they were destroyed will eventually come back to "life" and confess that Jesus is Lord.
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
If hell was exactly as the template that you prescribe, there would be no necessity for the residents of the cities to be resurrected because they would have already been "judged" and their destiny complete and finalized. However; it is clear that this is not so. For Rev 20 says that ALL people, from the sea, death and hell will stand before the White Throne Judgment. Also, in Phil, we have this statement:
Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
that would be confirmation for me that all those who have ever lived, no matter how they were destroyed will eventually come back to "life" and confess that Jesus is Lord.
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Bob, I have a question for you. If you believe that body and soul are destroyed/cease to exist at some point in hell, what happens to the spirit?
What a great quote! Wouldn't it be neat if the Bible said it?!! </font>[/QUOTE]The Scriptures do say it? Why don't you believe them?
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
It is impossible to be tormented eternally (as this verse states) unless the torment is conscious. That much needs no defining.
DHK
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Amen, DHK!
Of course our friend Bob cannot accept this verse. For it proves annihilation is not possible for those assigned to an eternal hell.
Of course our friend Bob cannot accept this verse. For it proves annihilation is not possible for those assigned to an eternal hell.