Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:

Jesus is speaking to John here. John is a Christian. John is warned of going to hell (gehenna). Even the NIV translates this as hell.

Thanks.

Was John a Christian at this point? I don't think so. Jesus had not yet died for his sins.

I also think this has to with people who allow something to prevent them from following Christ rather than a suggestion that one who belongs to Him would go to hell. </font>[/QUOTE]The bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. If he said John belonged to him, I think we could assume John is saved. You believe in eternal security I think, right? Is it required to follow Christ in order to be saved? Or is belief how we get saved?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Scott J:

The bottom line is that neither possibility given by God in the original is obscured by a version that uses two different words. One possibility is obscured by the KJV.

Lets not forget, the NIV actually uses 3 three words. It does at times use hell in place of either.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by James Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:

The bottom line is that neither possibility given by God in the original is obscured by a version that uses two different words. One possibility is obscured by the KJV.

Lets not forget, the NIV actually uses 3 three words. It does at times use hell in place of either. </font>[/QUOTE]I need to let you know that I am not a fan of the NIV. I won't knock someone who is using it faithfully and successfully... but I don't care to use it.

In order of frequency, I use the KJV, NKJV, NASB, others (rarely).

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by James Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:

Jesus is speaking to John here. John is a Christian. John is warned of going to hell (gehenna). Even the NIV translates this as hell.

Thanks.

Was John a Christian at this point? I don't think so. Jesus had not yet died for his sins.

I also think this has to with people who allow something to prevent them from following Christ rather than a suggestion that one who belongs to Him would go to hell. </font>[/QUOTE]The bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.</font>[/QUOTE] It also says in Romans 3:25 that Jesus was the propitiation for the remission of past sins. In the last verse of Romans 4, it says that Christ was delivered for our offenses.

He became the propitiation on the cross in terms of history. The OT system of sacrifice pointed forward to that event. John kept the sacrificial laws until the crucifixion.

If he said John belonged to him, I think we could assume John is saved.

We could assume perhaps. However, I don't assume that John was saved in the NT sense- Christ had not yet died for his sins.

You believe in eternal security I think, right?

More accurately I believe that the saved, elect of God will persevere. "Eternal security" to some people indicates a "decisional" type of salvation that usually stems from reciting a prayer but is not necessarily followed by a change of life, sanctification.

Is it required to follow Christ in order to be saved?

No. The saved and only the saved will truly follow Christ.

Or is belief how we get saved?

We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is an act of God. Faith is the vehicle in people by which He accomplishes that act of grace. It is all of God. He is the Author and Finisher.

Belief is a part of this. But you have attempted a false dichotomy. If someone truly "believes" in Christ, the belief will be life and character changing. Such belief is not possible without empowerment by the Holy Spirit. It is all of Grace.

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:No one would claim that they could put out the fires of hell. A fire that is not quenched may nevertheless burn itself out.

However, this phrase is used in conjunction with the phrases about the worm that doesn't die. This implies eternity, as any worm is either alive or dead, nothing else possible if it doesn't die.


Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire before the 1000 yrs. Satan is bound in hell for the 1000 yrs,

Actually, he is to be cast into the BOTTOMLESS PIT(Rev.20:1-3) for the 1K years. This is not hell, but a separate place, cut off from THIS plane of existence.(Possibly another dimension. Remember, God can do/make ANYTHING!) It stands to reason that if this pit has no bottom, it has no TOP, either.(Abyss, Greek 'abussos')


until he is loosed for a season, then he is cast into the lake of fire as well. They will remain there for all eternity. Thats not in question.

PRAISE THE LORD! And I apologize for even THINKING you might've been caught up in the false doctrine of Annihilationism. I guess that was from finding that people involved with ONE false doctrine are often involved in others. And since KJVO is a false doctrine, I added 2+2...


That gehenna is the lake of fire is what I question.

Here are several places where gehenna is translated as hell in the KJV: Matthew 5:22, 29,30, 10:28, 23:15,33, Mark 9:43, 45, 47, Luke 12:5, James 3:6.

Reading these verses makes it plain that gehenna is the lake of fire.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:
James Newman:No one would claim that they could put out the fires of hell. A fire that is not quenched may nevertheless burn itself out.

However, this phrase is used in conjunction with the phrases about the worm that doesn't die. This implies eternity, as any worm is either alive or dead, nothing else possible if it doesn't die.


Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire before the 1000 yrs. Satan is bound in hell for the 1000 yrs,

Actually, he is to be cast into the BOTTOMLESS PIT(Rev.20:1-3) for the 1K years. This is not hell, but a separate place, cut off from THIS plane of existence.(Possibly another dimension. Remember, God can do/make ANYTHING!) It stands to reason that if this pit has no bottom, it has no TOP, either.(Abyss, Greek 'abussos')


until he is loosed for a season, then he is cast into the lake of fire as well. They will remain there for all eternity. Thats not in question.

PRAISE THE LORD! And I apologize for even THINKING you might've been caught up in the false doctrine of Annihilationism. I guess that was from finding that people involved with ONE false doctrine are often involved in others. And since KJVO is a false doctrine, I added 2+2...


That gehenna is the lake of fire is what I question.

Here are several places where gehenna is translated as hell in the KJV: Matthew 5:22, 29,30, 10:28, 23:15,33, Mark 9:43, 45, 47, Luke 12:5, James 3:6.

Reading these verses makes it plain that gehenna is the lake of fire.

Worm doesnt die, implies that wherever it is, it is in its eternal resting place? We see death and hell give up the dead, then they are sent to the lake of fire. Worm dieth not has no bearing on the duration of the place in question. What worm is it talking about anyway?

If I am expected to accept that hades and gehenna and sheol and tartarus are all different places (and I'm not saying there is no difference) based on the fact that the words are different in Greek, then I must ask why we do not apply the same thinking to the lake of fire? Lake of fire is clearly not translated from gehenna in Revelation. Therefore it must be a different place. Surely God would have used the same name for it if indeed the word gehenna used throughout the NT before Revelation is talking about the same place? Why doesnt it say 'cast into Gehenna, that lake of fire I told you about'?

AFAIK, the OT only uses sheol, it does not appear to make any distinction between any of the different places you say a person may be subjected to after death. Why is this? If Jesus didn't have to explain the difference between hades and gehenna to his Jewish disciples, how do we know there is one?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:


Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire before the 1000 yrs. Satan is bound in hell for the 1000 yrs,

Actually, he is to be cast into the BOTTOMLESS PIT(Rev.20:1-3) for the 1K years. This is not hell, but a separate place, cut off from THIS plane of existence.(Possibly another dimension. Remember, God can do/make ANYTHING!) It stands to reason that if this pit has no bottom, it has no TOP, either.(Abyss, Greek 'abussos')

Agreed, he can do anything. Including create a bottomless pit in the belly of the earth, which is where the underworld appears to be. I think you mentioned before, something about another plane of existence. Hell seems to be inside the earth, yet larger than the earth in some sense. God can do this, I have no doubt. See Isaiah 14:15.

[ September 23, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: James Newman ]

 

[robycop3]

Think of it this way: Ford makes the Focus, Taurus, T-Bird, Mustang, & Crown Vic...all Fords, all cars. BUT...each is a specific model, different from any other in most respects, except that they DO share a few parts. If you asked me what car I drive & I said Ford, you'd want me to be more specific, right?Well, sheol & hades, tartarus, & gehenna are all separate places, all(except the "paradise-Abe's bosom" part of hades) unpleasant places of punishment, with gehenna being the final fulfillment. Since hades will be emptied, its purpose is fulfilled & it too shall be chucked into gehenna...and I suspect tartarus will be,too. gehenna is final...the LOF is final...therefore they're one and the same. Gehenna is the symbolic name for the trash heap of the earth, the lake of fire. Jesus most likely used this name because His audience was familiar with the ever-burning trash pile in the Valley of Hinnom and He was using an analogy. That's another reason why the KJV isn't always the best translation...it does a very poor job of separating the specific abodes of the wicked dead from one another by using the catchall "hell".

 

[James_Newman]

Where does it say gehenna is final? What separated hades (fire) from Abraham's bosom (paradise) was a gulf. Were both of these abodes in sheol? How do you know that Hades and Sheol arent roughly the same thing, with gehenna being the more fiery side of hades? Using words like everlasting and forever to prove that gehenna is the final stop for the wicked doesn't work, because the bible uses the same words for things that obviously do not match your criteria for everlasting and forever, which is on and on for endless eternity. Thats not what those words mean, unless endless eternity is the context being spoken of.

So to reason that gehenna is endless eternity because it says everlasting, then to say everlasting is eternity because it is gehenna is a circular argument. To say that because gehenna contains fire (even everlasting fire) it must be the lake of fire, is ignoring the fact that sheol has fire, and so does hades. What makes these places any less the lake of fire than gehenna?

You mention that gehenna refers to a dump outside Jerusalem. Look at this definition for hell.

3. A place where outcast persons or things are gathered; as: (a) A dungeon or prison; also, in certain running games, a place to which those who are caught are carried for detention. (b) A gambling house. ``A convenient little gambling hell for those who had grown reckless.'' --W. Black. (c) A place into which a tailor throws his shreds, or a printer his broken type. --Hudibras.

This is talking about garbage.

 

[robycop3]

From the context of the entire Bible, it appears that those who die in sin will go to the "hot" side of hades until the white throne judgment...then, they'll go to the lake of fire. Hades is never called gehenna, while gehenna is called the lake of fire several times. When one goes to gehenna, there's no more mention of him/her as ever going anywhere else. So the order appears to be hades(tartarus for angels), white throne judgment for people, then gehenna for eternity.

A side note...why don't angels get the chance for redemption, and why isn't SATAN in tartarus? Because the angels are made higher than us...and they could be in the presence of God at any time, or freely speak with Him. Therefore their guilt is all the greater as they SAW GOD and His power for who knows how long, but chose to rebel against Him anyway. As for Satan...he's a CHERUB, which is a higher being than the angels. In fact, he's the most powerful of CREATED beings, being inferior ONLY to the Holy Trinity. For whatever reason, God has chosen not to imprison him at this time.

However, at the appointed time, the devil and his angels will "GO DIRECTLY TO HELL, NOT PASS 'GO', NOT COLLECT $200".

Summary...gehenna & the LOF are indicated to be FINAL, so that's a good case for their being synonymous.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:
From the context of the entire Bible, it appears that those who die in sin will go to the "hot" side of hades until the white throne judgment...then, they'll go to the lake of fire. Hades is never called gehenna, while gehenna is called the lake of fire several times. When one goes to gehenna, there's no more mention of him/her as ever going anywhere else. So the order appears to be hades(tartarus for angels), white throne judgment for people, then gehenna for eternity.

A side note...why don't angels get the chance for redemption, and why isn't SATAN in tartarus? Because the angels are made higher than us...and they could be in the presence of God at any time, or freely speak with Him. Therefore their guilt is all the greater as they SAW GOD and His power for who knows how long, but chose to rebel against Him anyway. As for Satan...he's a CHERUB, which is a higher being than the angels. In fact, he's the most powerful of CREATED beings, being inferior ONLY to the Holy Trinity. For whatever reason, God has chosen not to imprison him at this time.

However, at the appointed time, the devil and his angels will "GO DIRECTLY TO HELL, NOT PASS 'GO', NOT COLLECT $200".

Summary...gehenna & the LOF are indicated to be FINAL, so that's a good case for their being synonymous.

I must protest, gehenna is never called the lake of fire, please give scripture to back this up. This whole thread would have died 2 days ago if this was true. The only thing indicating that Gehenna and the LOF are the same thing is you. Please show me where gehenna is indicated as being final. The lake of fire only appears in Revelation in the NT. Gehenna does not appear once in Revelation. There is a leap in logic being made here that is unwarranted.

You know why you never see Superman and Clark Kent together? They are the same person. Why doesnt Revelation say hades is being cast into gehenna? Because it could not be cast into itself.

 

[robycop3]

As I said, Jesus used gehenna as an illustration to His audience, who was familiar with the great trash dump which burned continuously for many years. Does Jesus ever mention anyone coming out of gehenna?

Jesus also gave the Revelation to John. he didn't need to use the Hinnom illustration to John any more. And Jesus, in His parable about the rich man & the beggar Lazarus, used HADES in Luke 16:23. Therefore, we have JESUS pointing out that they're different places. If gehenna were hades, would He not have said so to His disciples? Instead, He used the gehenna illustration to the multitudes at the Sermon on the Mount, while using the LOF connotation to John, who had more knowledge of these things than the average Jew. And by the time of revelation, Jerusalem had been destroyed by the Romans, and the earthly Gehenna may have burned itself out.

Therefore, I maintain that gehenna & the LOF are one and the same.

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

At least the KJB translators knew the difference, you "scholars" are still guessing, and accusing others of having "double-standards" and "sinning".

Since hell is cast into the Lake, it is totally presumptuous to think anything otherwise, so go ahead and remain confused about the frivilous things about God's Word.

 

[Gib]

Thou hast spoketh of the frivilous things about God's Word. What are some other examples of what you think are frivilous things about God's Word?

 

[robycop3]

Plain ol'Ralph:At least the KJB translators knew the difference,

If theydid, why didn't they INDICATE it?


you "scholars" are still guessing, and accusing others of having "double-standards" and "sinning".

Not actually...we truthfully accuse the KJVOs of advocating a false doctrine. I doubt if very meny of'em actually BELIEVE it; they're just relieving their argument syndromes.

Since hell is cast into the Lake, it is totally presumptuous to think anything otherwise,

No, it ISN'T; the GREEK from which the KJV is translated calls it HADES, as does JESUS in Luke 16:23. This same Jesus says HADES was cast into the LOF.(Rev.20:14)


so go ahead and remain confused about the frivilous things about God's Word.

The ONLY things I'm confused about are: What part of God's word is frivolous? I know we don't preach from Lamentations every day, but it's not frivolous.

And I'm confused about why any CHRISTIAN and BAPTIST would believe something as obviously dead and false as the KJVO myth...a myth that has ZERO Scriptural support & is therefore vapor.

 

[James_Newman]

So lets see if I have this straight...

Gehenna is the lake of fire because
1. it has fire
2. it has everlasting fire
3. it has worms that don't die
4. hades is cast into the lake of fire

We have discussed the fact that there is fire in hades, as evidenced by the rich man who was tormented by the flames and begged for Lazarus to bring him some water. We discussed the meaning of everlasting, and its contextual dependence to determine its extent of duration.

There are no worms mentioned in revelation, but I think I can show a worm in Luke 16.

Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Do you see it? It's in there. Look a little closer...

Job 25:6
How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

The rich man IS the worm. Their worm that dieth not refers to their soul/spirit/ghost/whatever that is being tormented in this flame, but does not die. The body is in the grave. We know this because the rich man is dead. Yet he is alive and in torment of flame in hades. Hades and gehenna are the same. If there is any difference between them, it is minor. Hades is the Ford, gehenna is the Focus.

Maybe it would have made things much easier if revelation had said death and gehenna were cast into the lake of fire, except I think then you would be saying that the lake of fire was Hades. There is a good reason for this confusion, and his name is Satan.

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

OK, gnat picking is the mainstay, but watch out for that camel that is passing by your lips!

I admit I should have put "frivilous' in quotations.

It is notworthy that yall seemed to be so confused by the Greek you are trying to use to determine God's Word when we already have it in English in the KJB, this discussion is an excellent example of the frivilousness of your "arguements" against the KJb in the disguised form of "attacking the (false) doctrine of KJVO"

It seems you are at best defeating your own purpose

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

I do want to ask this question and it is off-topic, except the salvation of souls ought to never be "off-topic", but how many times more have yall argued over the versions compared to how many people you witnessed to today?

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:The rich man IS the worm. Their worm that dieth not refers to their soul/spirit/ghost/whatever that is being tormented in this flame, but does not die.

This is sheer poppycock! This is adding to Scripture! But I've learned that when a person has ONE false doctrine, he/she often has more!

You're adding a meaning to Scripture that isn't there. This is adding to Scripture same as adding words is. Know what "Bah! Humbug!" means?



The body is in the grave. We know this because the rich man is dead. Yet he is alive and in torment of flame in hades. Hades and gehenna are the same.

No, they're not. Hades is cast into gehenna; JESUS HIMSELF showed that to John.

If there is any difference between them, it is minor. Hades is the Ford, gehenna is the Focus.

Actually, hades is the PASSENGER COMPARTMENT.

Maybe it would have made things much easier if revelation had said death and gehenna were cast into the lake of fire, except I think then you would be saying that the lake of fire was Hades. There is a good reason for this confusion, and his name is Satan.

No confusion on MY part...it's YOU who's trying to make something else out of JESUS' words besides what He actually said.

As I said, a person with one false doctrine often has others. With you, it's three and counting...

1.) KJVO

2.) "Church Age"

3.) "Man's spirit is a worm"

I suggest you PRAY FERVENTLY for the Holy Spirit to show you the TRUTH and to get those false doctrines out of your mind! Keep it up & you're gonna pass the POINT OF NO RETURN of being mired in falsehoods.

 

[robycop3]

Plain ol' ralph:OK, gnat picking is the mainstay, but watch out for that camel that is passing by your lips!

Seems as if the camel's going YOUR way. Where's the SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for KJVO?

I admit I should have put "frivilous' in quotations.

OK.

It is notworthy that yall seemed to be so confused by the Greek you are trying to use to determine God's Word when we already have it in English in the KJB,

Actually, we point out the booboos in the KJV to those who claim it's perfect, to prove them wrong. Also, we use the Greek to again show the KJVOs they're wrong when they say, "The KJV's rendering is the only correct one. Such an example is right before us now. The generic word "hell" is NOT the best rendering of the Greek words for the various places of confinement of the wicked who die.


this discussion is an excellent example of the frivilousness of your "arguements" against the KJb in the disguised form of "attacking the (false) doctrine of KJVO"

As I said, the KJV isn't perfect, and we've PROVEN it. Call it what you want, but all the hype and spin will NOT make the KJVO myth true.

It seems you are at best defeating your own purpose

Actually, it's the KJVOs who brought the subject up. They have a "wolf" by the ears. Faced with the utter lack of evidence to support their myth, they're still afraid to let go of it, fearing some kind of consequence. They've had this "wolf" by the ears for so long that if they DO let go, it'll simply go away w/o turning on them. I believe that many KJVOs are simply afraid to let go despite knowing their myth is false.

I do want to ask this question and it is off-topic, except the salvation of souls ought to never be "off-topic", but how many times more have yall argued over the versions compared to how many people you witnessed to today?

Can only speak for myself, but I'm always prepared to witness/testify 24/7. We go house-to-house on Tuesday eves. In the meanwhile, I do what God has called me to do, that is, speak out against false doctrines, cults & sects. EVERY Christian is expected to witness according to the ability God gives to each, but He also gives each believer specific works to perform, and the ability to perform them as He wills. I spent a lotta time researching the KJVO myth, so now I'm fully prepared to fight it w/o taking much time. If you're serious about the matter, you'll take the time to learn something about it and realize it's false...and I PROMISE you that if you do much witnessing, the issue's gonna come up...and you could possibly allow someone to remain lost by berating THEIR BV(s), forgetting that may the BV(s) GOD has led that person to read. Do you REALLY wanna do that?