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Is Irresistible Grace "resistible"?

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Luke2427

Active Member
Oh, so now we are down to "my facts are better than your facts"? You are the one who twist things to suit yourself, and I am not referring to theological "facts" at the moment, simply in general.

I will not give alms to John Calvin, which almost seems to be what you want from others.

You keep making up this crud about what I expect.

I ahve made it clear to you but you keep misrepresenting me on purpose I must now conclude.

I have told you in no uncertain terms how this started and what I am asking.

I told you that someone said that Calvin had NOTHING to do with the founding of this nation.

I said it was spitting on one's own heritage to say such an ignorant thing.

I don't ask for people to ascribe to the doctrines of grace, nor to raise a toast to Calvin every day or any other such silly nonsense.

I ask them not to say STUPID things like, "Calin had nothing to do with the founding of this nation."

I don't care if they even like Calvin. But to ignorantly and obstinately deny his contributions is less than noble.

Now I have made this clear- you should not further misrepresent me.

Some of these folks may lack the intellect to pick up on what I am saying. Some of them may be blinded by emotions on the matter.

I know better when it comes to you. If you continue to misrepresent me it will be on purpose for nefarious motives. That is all I can see would be the case.
 

glfredrick

New Member
Amazing, Calvinists freely admit that "irresistable" is a poor choice of words and is misleading as to what they truly believe, then they have the gall to criticize us for not understanding them. George is closer to the truth, but he is in error as well. You cannot have spiritual life, you cannot be regenerated until you first believe on Jesus. Until you believe you are dead in your trespasses and sins.

How can someone who is dead "believe?"

Even Arminian theology, which I pasted for you in another post, says that God must first give His grace before even belief can happen.

That means that truly, Arminian theology and Calvinistic theology are not that far apart at this point, for only God can make alive what is dead.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Tell the Almighty who burns men in hell. He goofed if no man deserves to be burned at the stake. Hell is a lot worse than that!
Why do you ascribe evil to God. The Almighty doesn't burn men in hell. They choose that place for themselves. Have you not read the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Read it, and learn for yourself.
Twisted logic, DHK, is saying that man does not deserve what God will do to them forever.
Your logic is still twisted. You, Luke, do not deserve anything better than eternal damnation in hell. You don't deserve heaven; you don't deserve to be one of the elect; you don't deserve anything of God. What makes you think you do?? You deserve the same fate as Hitler. None of us deserve any of God's goodness and mercy, except it were of the grace of God. He is the potter, we are the clay; He is the Creator, we are the creation. Who are we to command God?!
BTW, Sadam Hussein was hung by the neck til death- are you for that?
And who hung him? Enlighten me.
And I think it is low down and low class to to even question whether my heroes include Hitler and Sadam Hussein.
Why should it be? You are advocating the actions of murderers. Servetus was murdered. By whose hand? You said he deserved to be murdered. What kind of statement is that? It is the same kind of statement that Hitler and Saddam would say (about the Jews and the Kurds). Servetus deserved it--just like the Jews and the Kurds deserved it. What kind of monster are you in your thinking.
I also think it is not very intelligent to compare Calvin's burning of Servetus at the stake to Hitler and Hussein's atrocities.
Give me one good reason why there is a difference. Murder is murder. It doesn't matter by whose hand it is.
I know you are a moderator and this will probably sic you on me from henceforth, but I think you should withdraw these inflammatory remarks.
Give me a reason why. Show me where I am wrong. You advocate murder.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Why do you ascribe evil to God. The Almighty doesn't burn men in hell. They choose that place for themselves. Have you not read the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Read it, and learn for yourself.

This is not true. God will ahve those whose names are not written in the book of life hurled into the lake of fire.

What is evil is to call what god does- evil

Your logic is still twisted. You, Luke, do not deserve anything better than eternal damnation in hell. You don't deserve heaven; you don't deserve to be one of the elect; you don't deserve anything of God. What makes you think you do?? You deserve the same fate as Hitler. None of us deserve any of God's goodness and mercy, except it were of the grace of God. He is the potter, we are the clay; He is the Creator, we are the creation. Who are we to command God?!

Yea, I think that's what I am arguing.

And who hung him? Enlighten me.

Are you serious?

Why should it be? You are advocating the actions of murderers. Servetus was murdered.

Servetus was no more murdered than Achan was murdered.

By whose hand? You said he deserved to be murdered.

I did not say he deserved to be murdered- but he did deserve to be executed. He was found guilty of purposefully spreading heresy.

Our government does not have such laws- but the Jews did.


What kind of monster are you in your thinking.

I think this language is beneath a moderator.

Give me one good reason why there is a difference. Murder is murder. It doesn't matter by whose hand it is.

I already have. I am sure this will not satisfy you, but your question has been answered. Capital punishment for heresy did not begin in Geneva or the Inquisitions- it began in the Word of God.

I still don't approve of it, BTW. I don't agree with Calvin's decision, but I have sense enough to see the sense of it in his day in his circumstances.

Only a very historically handicapped person would consider Calvin a monster.

Give me a reason why. Show me where I am wrong. You advocate murder.

The first thing I advocate, ironically, is you chilling out.

As for the murder thing- I have addressed that.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
As for the murder thing- I have addressed that.
First of all, Calvin was not a Jew, and was not living under OT law.
Secondly, Calvin set up his own church-state government, something in and of itself--quite reprehensible.
Thirdly, Calvin advocated the murder of Servetus, condoned it, and had it carried out.
Fourthly, one doesn't carry out murder or even capitol punishment just because they differ in doctrine than you. Did Jesus do that? No. Did he teach his disciples to do that? No. Do any of the epistles teach this? No.

To summarize, you really haven't addressed anything, have you?
 

Winman

Active Member
Luke, showing grace to man is not the same as giving men grace. The scripture says the grace that brings salvation has "appeared" to all men. But God "gives" grace to only those who believe. How can God give grace to an unbeliever when his wrath abides upon them? How can God show favor to an unbeliever when the scriptures say without faith it is impossible to please God? Can't you see the problem there? You have God regenerating someone whom Jesus said "shall not see life" and one whom God's wrath abides upon. God is not going to make you alive while you are still in your sins and his wrath is upon you. I don't care what different groups believed, I care only what the scriptures say. Luke, you remind me of Paul, you are kicking against the pricks. I hope Jesus speaks to you through his word like he did to Paul, if you will listen you will be a great servant for God.
 
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glfredrick

New Member
Luke, showing grace to man is not the same as giving men grace. The scripture says the grace that brings salvation has "appeared" to all men. But God "gives" grace to only those who believe. How can God give grace to an unbeliever when his wrath abides upon them? How can God show favor to an unbeliever when the scriptures say without faith it is impossible to please God? Can't you see the problem there? You have God regenerating someone whom Jesus said "shall not see life" and one whom God's wrath abides upon. God is not going to make you alive while you are still in your sins and his wrath is upon you. I don't care what different groups believed, I care only what the scriptures say. Luke, you remind me of Paul, you are kicking against the pricks. I hope Jesus speaks to you through his word like he did to Paul, if you will listen you will be a great servant for God.

Winman, did you ever respond to the post where I posted the article of Arminian theology that said that God indeed gives His grace before faith?

Just wondering if you have a way of reconciling what Arminian theology states compared to what you are stating?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Luke, showing grace to man is not the same as giving men grace. The scripture says the grace that brings salvation has "appeared" to all men. But God "gives" grace to only those who believe. How can God give grace to an unbeliever when his wrath abides upon them? How can God show favor to an unbeliever when the scriptures say without faith it is impossible to please God? Can't you see the problem there? You have God regenerating someone whom Jesus said "shall not see life" and one whom God's wrath abides upon. God is not going to make you alive while you are still in your sins and his wrath is upon you. I don't care what different groups believed, I care only what the scriptures say. Luke, you remind me of Paul, you are kicking against the pricks. I hope Jesus speaks to you through his word like he did to Paul, if you will listen you will be a great servant for God.

God showed favor (grace) to Abram (Gen. 12) prior to him believing (Gen. 15).

You'd be a servant if you would listen to that and to the many other places within Scripture that show God giving Grace before faith. Grace prior to faith is also the NT example. Acts 9.

What is the Gospel, Winman?
 
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preacher4truth

Active Member
Winman, did you ever respond to the post where I posted the article of Arminian theology that said that God indeed gives His grace before faith?

Just wondering if you have a way of reconciling what Arminian theology states compared to what you are stating?

He hasn't done this, as I have also requested him to do this.

He also avoids answering what the Gospel is. This is paramount.

A minister would have immediately answered this question, yet he has avoided this question, and others, thread after thread.

If I were asked to answer this, I would as a minister had answered this immediately.
 
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Winman

Active Member
He shows his grace, he reveals his grace, he makes it known to all men. But only those who believe receive this grace. If God did not reveal Jesus to us we could not possibly believe. Jesus is this grace that appeared to all men. Even Muslims, Hindus, and even athiests know of Jesus and the gospel, but only those who believe receive this grace and are given life.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I Paul who was called by Jesus will be saved by the grace of God through the faith of Jesus the Christ Who gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit until the redemption of my soul, the purchased possession.

That is all.
 

Winman

Active Member
God showed favor (grace) to Abram (Gen. 12) prior to him believing (Gen. 15).

You'd be a servant if you would listen to that and to the many other places within Scripture that show God giving Grace before faith. Grace prior to faith is also the NT example. Acts 9.

What is the Gospel, Winman?


God showed grace to Abraham before he believed, he revealed himself to Abraham, but he did not "give" him grace until he believed. It was only after Abraham believed that righteousness and eternal life was imputed to him. It was the same with Paul, Jesus had been revealed to him well before he was saved, he was very aware of Jesus and the gospel. Paul was far more rebellious than Abraham, Jesus had to personally appear and speak to him. Did Paul immediately believe? No, Jesus said he was resisting this grace that had been shown to him for some time, he was "kicking against the pricks". It was only after hearing Jesus speak his name that Paul believed and was saved. God has revealed his grace to all men today, his Son Jesus Christ, but only those who believe are given grace which is eternal life.
 
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Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Things To Consider

God has revealed his grace to all men today, his Son Jesus Christ,

Quite wrong there WM. Many have never heard the Gospel. They have never even heard of Jesus Christ.

I just met a North Korean young man on Christmas day. Actually he's considered a South Korean now. He escaped from North Korea four years ago. I asked him if he had every heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He pointblank told me he had never once heard of the Gospel or the name of Jesus while in North Korea.

There have been mutiplied millions in Asia who have never heard the Good News. Hudson Taylor was embarrassed when asked by a Chinese man :"Why, if your message is actually true haven't people from your country centuries ago come to our nation and told us? My ancestors had no opportunity. They perished without knowing Christ." I put quotation marks there but I tried to recall his words. That's my paraphrase.

The reality is that many have died in their sins and are experiencing a Christless eternity because they have never heard about the Glad Tidings of Jesus Christ. God's grace was not revealed to them.

I have adult students who have never heard of the Gospel and are clueless about Christ. Before Christmas I had everyone read from Luke chapter two and it was the first time most had even had a Bible in their hands. Yet South Korea has a huge Christian population.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Quite wrong there WM. Many have never heard the Gospel. They have never even heard of Jesus Christ.

I just met a North Korean young man on Christmas day. Actually he's considered a South Korean now. He escaped from North Korea four years ago. I asked him if he had every heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He pointblank told me he had never once heard of the Gospel or the name of Jesus while in North Korea.

There have been mutiplied millions in Asia who have never heard the Good News. Hudson Taylor was embarrassed when asked by a Chinese man :"Why, if your message is actually true haven't people from your country centuries ago come to our nation and told us? My ancestors had no opportunity. They perished without knowing Christ." I put quotation marks there but I tried to recall his words. That's my paraphrase.

The reality is that many have died in their sins and are experiencing a Christless eternity because they have never heard about the Glad Tidings of Jesus Christ. God's grace was not revealed to them.

I have adult students who have never heard of the Gospel and are clueless about Christ. Before Christmas I had everyone read from Luke chapter two and it was the first time most had even had a Bible in their hands. Yet South Korea has a huge Christian population.

So, Rippon. What do YOU think with respect to those who have never heard the gospel? Are they simply just "out of luck" for eternity? Do you think there may be any "special way" God deals with these individuals? Is there anything in scripture which may leave this "open ended"?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
God showed grace to Abraham before he believed, he revealed himself to Abraham, but he did not "give" him grace until he believed. It was only after Abraham believed that righteousness and eternal life was imputed to him. It was the same with Paul, Jesus had been revealed to him well before he was saved, he was very aware of Jesus and the gospel. Paul was far more rebellious than Abraham, Jesus had to personally appear and speak to him. Did Paul immediately believe? No, Jesus said he was resisting this grace that had been shown to him for some time, he was "kicking against the pricks". It was only after hearing Jesus speak his name that Paul believed and was saved. God has revealed his grace to all men today, his Son Jesus Christ, but only those who believe are given grace which is eternal life.

God gave His Grace to Abram in Gen. 12. This given grace did work in him while He was lead along by God Himself. Gen. 15 then shows the end result of that journey. Also in Galatians, we shall see when Paul received grace, or was given grace, to use your word:

"But when God, who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult flesh and blood." Galatians 1:15-16 NASB

He Paul was set apart from his mothers womb, and even better, before the foundation of the world set apart by God's grace. This is a one time act once and for all in its meaning of being set apart as is worded here. So before birth he was already once and for all given grace. At salvation, he realized this, even prior to this, he kicked against what He knew God was doing, after salvation he realized this was what God had already done; given Grace to him, saving him.

Paul was elected and this transformation was predetermined by God, as God's grace was already given to him, and he was set apart in the womb, the tense of this wording meaning with no regard for time, it was a one time act, literally a one point in time action, clear back to while he was in the womb. This is also the case for all who believe and are saved.

What you are actually teaching is we gain grace, I believe it to be given soley by God's choice alone and thus we realize this: that God alone has saved us, doing all of the choosing and saving, showing every part of this as what He alone has done.

Winman, what is the Gospel?

- Blessings
 
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Winman

Active Member
P4T, it's pretty ridiculous for you to keep asking me what the gospel is when I speak of it in nearly each post I make, but I will tell just in case you don't know the gospel. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" That is the gospel. It is that when we were sinners, God loved us and sent his son Jesus into the world, who took our sins upon himself and died in our place, he was buried, and on the third day rose from the dead, and that if we place our trust in this finished work performed in our behalf we shall be saved and receive everlasting life. Now let me ask you a question, does John 3:16 say we receive life before or after we believe? If we do not receive life until we believe, then what are we before we believe, alive or dead?
 
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preacher4truth

Active Member
P4T, it's pretty ridiculous for you to keep asking me what the gospel is when I speak of it in nearly each post I make, but I will tell just in case you don't know the gospel. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" That is the gospel. It is that when we were sinners, God loved us and sent his son Jesus into the world, who took our sins upon himself and died in our place, he was buried, and on the third day rose from the dead, and that if we place our trust in this finished work performed in our behalf we shall be saved and receive everlasting life. Now let me ask you a question, does John 3

I don't see one thing wrong or ridiculous in asking you to tell what the Gospel is. We should be thrilled at the opportunity. I've seen several ministers get upset about me asking this question, some have even refused to answer, others, as you, have shown displeasure to tell the greatest truth known to man.

The Gospel is not John 3:16 technically.

It is 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, that He died for our sins, that He was buried, and that He was raised, and as others, I too state the fact of His being seen after His Resurrection as part of this, as it is included in the text. He died, was buried, was raised again, was sighted! This you have gotten correct, and I would rather you preached all of this instead of only John 3:16.

I don't understand why asking this is so aggravating. You have not presented the Gospel in nearly every post as you say.

I suppose you will fill in the missing point of your question? Thanks for answering the question, albeit it was in reluctance that you did so.

Here is your question:

Now let me ask you a question, does John 3:16 say we receive life before or after we believe? If we do not receive life until we believe, then what are we before we believe, alive or dead

How does my reply, a couple of posts back answer this, concerning Paul, what he came to know and see and believe God had already accomplished for him, as in Galatians? This is glorious truth that he was made aware of after salvation, according to what God had already done. That is one way we glory in the Gospel and in Gods grace; He has done it all, and the truth is almost beyond comprehension, and we see more of His Grace knowing He had already accomplished this, and in this we see His Sovereignty. How then does God view us? Through His Son, from eternity past? We recognize we are dead in sins. He shows us we are in Christ before the foundation of the world.

- Blessings
 
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Winman

Active Member
You didn't answer my question. Do we receive life before or after we believe? We do not earn grace, we receive it. If someone said they would give you a million dollars if you simply trusted them and held out your hand, you held out your hand and they gave you the money, did you earn that money through your own efforts?
 

glfredrick

New Member
He shows his grace, he reveals his grace, he makes it known to all men. But only those who believe receive this grace. If God did not reveal Jesus to us we could not possibly believe. Jesus is this grace that appeared to all men. Even Muslims, Hindus, and even athiests know of Jesus and the gospel, but only those who believe receive this grace and are given life.

You are describing salvation by works of man. That is a Pelagian position. See R. C. Sproul's explanation below:

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/augpelagius.html said:
Augustine and PelagiusBy R. C. Sproul

"It is Augustine who gave us the Reformation." So wrote B. B. Warfield in his assessment of the influence of Augustine on church history. It is not only that Luther was an Augustinian monk, or that Calvin quoted Augustine more than any other theologian that provoked Warfield's remark. Rather, it was that the Reformation witnessed the ultimate triumph of Augustine's doctrine of grace over the legacy of the Pelagian view of man.

Humanism, in all its subtle forms, recapitulates the unvarnished Pelagianism against which Augustine struggled. Though Pelagius was condemned as a heretic by Rome, and its modified form, Semi-Pelagianism was likewise condemned by the Council of Orange in 529, the basic assumptions of this view persisted throughout church history to reappear in Medieval Catholicism, Renaissance Humanism, Socinianism, Arminianism, and modern Liberalism. The seminal thought of Pelagius survives today not as a trace or tangential influence but is pervasive in the modern church. Indeed, the modern church is held captive by it.

What was the core issue between Augustine and Pelagius? The heart of the debate centered on the doctrine of original sin, particularly with respect to the question of the extent to which the will of fallen man is "free." Adolph Harnack said:

There has never, perhaps, been another crisis of equal importance in church history in which the opponents have expressed the principles at issue so clearly and abstractly. The Arian dispute before the Nicene Council can alone be compared with it. (History of Agmer V/IV/3)​

The controversy began when the British monk, Pelagius, opposed at Rome Augustine's famous prayer: "Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Pelagius recoiled in horror at the idea that a divine gift (grace) is necessary to perform what God commands. For Pelagius and his followers responsibility always implies ability. If man has the moral responsibility to obey the law of God, he must also have the moral ability to do it.

Harnack summarizes Pelagian thought:

Nature, free-will, virtue and law, these strictly defined and made independent of the notion of God - were the catch-words of Pelagianism: self-acquired virtue is the supreme good which is followed by reward. Religion and morality lie in the sphere of the free spirit; they are at any moment by man's own effort.​

The difference between Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism is more a difference of degree than of kind. To be sure, on the surface there seems like there is a huge difference between the two, particularly with respect to original sin and to the sinner's dependence upon grace. Pelagius categorically denied the doctrine of original sin, arguing that Adam's sin affected Adam alone and that infants at birth are in the same state as Adam was before the Fall. Pelagius also argued that though grace may facilitate the achieving of righteousness, it is not necessary to that end. Also, he insisted that the constituent nature of humanity is not convertible; it is indestructively good.

Over against Pelagius, Semi-Pelagianism does have a doctrine of original sin whereby mankind is considered fallen. Consequently grace not only facilitates virtue, it is necessary for virtue to ensue. Man's nature can be changed and has been changed by the Fall.

However, in Semi-Pelagianism there remains a moral ability within man that is unaffected by the Fall. We call this an "island of righteousness" by which the fallen sinner still has the inherent ability to incline or move himself to cooperate with God's grace. Grace is necessary but not necessarily effective. Its effect always depends upon the sinner's cooperation with it by virtue of the exercise of the will.

It is not by accident that Martin Luther considered The Bondage of the Will to be his most important book. He saw in Erasmus a man who, despite his protests to the contrary, was a Pelagian in Catholic clothing. Luther saw that lurking beneath the controversy of merit and grace, and faith and works was the issue of to what degree the human will is enslaved by sin and to what degree we are dependent upon grace for our liberation. Luther argued from the Bible that the flesh profits nothing and that this "nothing" is not a little "something."

Augustine's view of the Fall was opposed to both Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. He said that mankind is a massa peccati, a "mess of sin," incapable of raising itself from spiritual death. For Augustine man can no more move or incline himself to God than an empty glass can fill itself. For Augustine the initial work of divine grace by which the soul is liberated from the bondage of sin is sovereign and operative. To be sure we cooperate with this grace, but only after the initial divine work of liberation.

Augustine did not deny that fallen man still has a will and that the will is capable of making choices. He argued that fallen man still has a free will (liberium arbitrium) but has lost his moral liberty (libertas). The state of original sin leaves us in the wretched condition of being unable to refrain from sinning. We still are able to choose what we desire, but our desires remain chained by our evil impulses. He argued that the freedom that remains in the will always leads to sin. Thus in the flesh we are free only to sin, a hollow freedom indeed. It is freedom without liberty, a real moral bondage. True liberty can only come from without, from the work of God on the soul. Therefore we are not only partly dependent upon grace for our conversion but totally dependent upon grace.

Modern Evangelicalism sprung from the Reformation whose roots were planted by Augustine. But today the Reformational and Augustinian view of grace is all but eclipsed in Evangelicalism. Where Luther triumphed in the sixteenth century, subsequent generations gave the nod to Erasmus.

Modern evangelicals repudiate unvarnished Pelagianism and frequently Semi-Pelagianism as well. It is insisted that grace is necessary for salvation and that man is fallen. The will is acknowledged to be severely weakened even to the point of being "99 percent" dependent upon grace for its liberation. But that one percent of unaffected moral ability or spiritual power which becomes the decisive difference between salvation and perdition is the link that preserves the chain to Pelagius. We have not broken free from the Pelagian captivity of the church.

That one percent is the "little something" Luther sought to demolish because it removes the sola from sola gratia and ultimately the sola from sola fide. The irony may be that though modern Evangelicalism loudly and repeatedly denounces Humanism as the mortal enemy of Christianity, it entertains a Humanistic view of man and of the will at its deepest core.

We need an Augustine or a Luther to speak to us anew lest the light of God's grace be not only over-shadowed but be obliterated in our time.

R. C. Sproul is now the distinguished visiting professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Knox Theological Seminary.

Used by permission of Ligonier Ministries, copyright 1996. Review postings to a discussion forum on this article's subject at Ligonier Ministries' previous Web site location: http://www1.gospelcom.net/HyperNews/get/tt/ttsubrc-06-96.html.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
You didn't answer my question. Do we receive life before or after we believe? We do not earn grace, we receive it. If someone said they would give you a million dollars if you simply trusted them and held out your hand, you held out your hand and they gave you the money, did you earn that money through your own efforts?

I thought it was God reaching out to me, as in the case of all who are Biblically saved, and not me reaching out to Him.
 
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