Is it idolatry?

[Revmitchell]

If I need advice on how to start another thread, I'll be sure to reach out to you.

If you don't want to hear from me do not engage me.

 

[Walpole]

If you don't want to hear from me do not engage me.

Probably best since you seem to be looking to argue for argument's sake.

Best wishes to you.

 

[Walpole]

Because Jesus commanded us to do this, "in remembrance of Him." Not sure where the idea of paying it the highest respect comes from, but I guess I would treat it with respect, nevertheless.

So using an image to represent / symbolize Jesus would be considered idolatry, but using bread and wine / juice to represent / symbolize Him would not be?

Help me understand the difference.

 

[JonC]

Fair point. What if I rephrased my question to: But if the bread and wine or grape juice is a symbol, how then is remembering Him in those things not an act of idolatry?

In other words, you are still using a thing to symbolize / represent God.



I don't think that is a parallel comparison because the flag is not involved in your actual worship ceremony. The flag is not consumed and said to represent and symbolize God.



But you are using bread and wine/juice to symbolize / remember / represent / memorialize God. If we can establish that using a picture / image and claiming it represents / symbolizes God (see the OP) is idolatry, then why is using bread and wine/juice and claiming it represents / symbolizes God not idolatry?



Is it possible Christ commanded and instituted a form of idolatry by having us include bread and wine/juice to serve as symbols / reminders / memorials of God? Or is there something else to this?

Help me understand.

As an act in rememberence of Christ and the work of the cross (as commanded by God) the partaker remembers through the act what Christ did. It is not idoltry as the object of worship is not tge elements of the supper but God, Who is worthy of worship.

 

[Revmitchell]

Probably best since you seem to be looking to argue for argument's sake.

Best wishes to you.

No I made my concern clear, I don't care for your "trick question" as Scarlett put it. Further, I find your heresy of suggesting the Lord's Supper as idolatrous ridiculous. You bring up the Lord's Supper in a less than honest way but do not bring up the scripture associated with it. Nothing about your thread looks honest or upfront.

 

[Walpole]

As an act in rememberence of Christ and the work of the cross (as commanded by God) the partaker remembers through the act what Christ did. It is not idoltry as the object of worship is not tge elements of the supper but God, Who is worthy of worship.

But if the bread and wine / juice are said to symbolize / represent God, then they are objects of worship. I am trying to understand why an image said to represent / symbolize God is considered idolatrous, but bread and wine / juice are not.

St. Paul said, "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participatio (koinōnia) n in Christ's blood? Is not the bread we break a participation in Christ's body?" (1 Cor 10:16)

koinōnia = Fellowship, association, communion, intercourse, intimacy

Source --> Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


Wouldn't trying to have fellowship, association, communion, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol such as bread and wine / juice be the height of idolatry?

Shouldn't that be reserved for God alone?

 

[InTheLight]

So using an image to represent / symbolize Jesus would be considered idolatry, but using bread and wine / juice to represent / symbolize Him would not be?

Help me understand the difference.

Because Jesus (God) commanded us to do this, "in remembrance of Him."
In the other instance the pastor (human) is suggesting we may do something if we like.

 

[Walpole]

Because Jesus (God) commanded us to do this, "in remembrance of Him."
In the other instance the pastor (human) is suggesting we may do something if we like.

Are there other examples in Scripture where God commanded man to make something that symbolizes him and use it in the the context of worship?

The examples I come up with are all condemnations of man making things said to symbolize / represent God. The golden calf quickly comes to mind.

 

[JonC]

But if the bread and wine / juice are said to symbolize / represent God, then they are objects of worship. I am trying to understand why an image said to represent / symbolize God is considered idolatrous, but bread and wine / juice are not.

St. Paul said, "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participatio (koinōnia) n in Christ's blood? Is not the bread we break a participation in Christ's body?" (1 Cor 10:16)

koinōnia = Fellowship, association, communion, intercourse, intimacy

Source --> Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


Wouldn't trying to have fellowship, association, communion, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol such as bread and wine / juice be the height of idolatry?

Shouldn't that be reserved for God alone?

Some may say the elements symbolize or represent God. That does not make sense to me (I do not know how they get there).

Scripture never says that. Scripture tells us to observe the Supper in rememberence - NOT as a symbol OF God but in rememberence of what He has done.

 

[Adonia]

Idolotry is worshipping some amd ma

Some may say the elements symbolize or represent God. That does not make sense to me (I do not know how they get there).

Without going into it here, there are different interpretations of this. Orthodox believers believe that Jesus (God) is a part of the elements, that they really do contain His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - while other Christians believe they are just a symbol of Him.

NOT as a symbol OF God but in rememberence of what He has done.

I thought Baptists did indeed believe the elements were just symbolic. Do not Baptists do communion to remember his suffering and death through the symbols of crackers and grape juice?

 

[Walpole]

Some may say the elements symbolize or represent God. That does not make sense to me (I do not know how they get there).

Scripture never says that. Scripture tells us to observe the Supper in rememberence - NOT as a symbol OF God but in rememberence of what He has done.

JonC,

Some people get there because of the words Jesus spoke when instituting the Supper.

"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" (Luke 22:19-22)

Either the bread and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ, or they are mere symbols.

As for the remembrance, it's interesting to note if you are doing this to remember what He had done (namely the Cross), He had not yet done it when He instituted the Supper. Hence you would be remembering / commemorating that which did not occur until the following day. In other words, what exactly are you remembering, as nothing was offered so as to be commemorated until the following day on Good Friday.

It would appear Christ either instituted an empty ritual complete with things said to represent / symbolize God, or there is something deeper going on. That's what I'm trying to understand.

 

[JonC]

Idolotry is worshipping some amd ma


Without going into it here, there are different interpretations of this. Orthodox believers believe that Jesus (God) is a part of the elements, that they really do contain His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, while other Christians believe they are just a symbol of Him.



I thought Baptists did indeed believe the elements were just symbolic. Do not Baptists do communion to remember his suffering and death through the symbols of bread and wine or grape juice?

Baptist believe the elements symbolic but not as an actual symbol for God. It is in rememberance of Christ and the sacrifice of the cross (not as objects symbolizing God).

I don't believe other views are necessarily idolatry.It just seemed appropriate that I leave the views of others for those who hold them.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

Some people get there because of the words Jesus spoke when instituting the Supper.

"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" (Luke 22:19-22)

Either the bread and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ, or they are mere symbols.

As for the remembrance, it's interesting to note if you are doing this to remember what He had done (namely the Cross), He had not yet done it when He instituted the Supper. Hence you would be remembering / commemorating that which did not occur until the following day. In other words, what exactly are you remembering, as nothing was offered so as to be commemorated until the following day on Good Friday.

Yes. I believe the ordinance was instituted prior to the event it represented was completed.

 

[Walpole]

Yes. I believe the ordinance was instituted prior to the event it represented was completed.

Which raises the question: What exactly are you memorializing / commemorating?

It would appear Christ either instituted an empty ritual complete with things said to represent / symbolize God at future events, or there is something deeper going on.

That's what I'm trying to understand.

 

[Walpole]

Baptist believe the elements symbolic but not as an actual symbol for God. It is in rememberance of Christ and the sacrifice of the cross (not as objects symbolizing God).

I don't believe other views are necessarily idolatry.It just seemed appropriate that I leave the views of others for those who hold them.

What exactly are they symbolic of?

 

[InTheLight]

Are there other examples in Scripture where God commanded man to make something that symbolizes him and use it in the the context of worship?

The examples I come up with are all condemnations of man making things said to symbolize / represent God. The golden calf quickly comes to mind.

Yes, well, Jesus is worthy to be worshiped. Apparently he is the exception to your observation.

Rev. 5:12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:“Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

 

[Adonia]

Baptist believe the elements symbolic but not as an actual symbol for God.

A very important distinction for those that use the symbolic outlook. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Walpole]

Yes, well, Jesus is worthy to be worshiped. Apparently he is the exception to your observation.

Rev. 5:12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:“Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

Now I'm really confused. Recall I wrote:

Are there other examples in Scripture where God commanded man to make something that symbolizes him and use it in the the context of worship?

The examples I come up with are all condemnations of man making things said to symbolize / represent God. The golden calf quickly comes to mind.


--> Are you stating that Jesus was created by man to symbolize God?

 

[Walpole]

A very important distinction for those that use the symbolic outlook. Thanks for the clarification.

What exactly are they symbolic of?

 

[Adonia]

What exactly are they symbolic of?

Someone who views Holy Communion in a symbolic way needs to answer that.