"Remain?" Remain what?
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Is it moral to Kill in self-defense?
- Thread starter robertguwapito
- Start date
"Remain?" Remain what?
plain_n_simple
Active Member
The Verse
Matt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
You are trying to say that " whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." is a spiritual evil and not a physical evil, an insult and not a physical slap.
"An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:" Here Jesus refers to Deut 19
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
This clearly is saying whatever evil has been done to the victim, the aggressor will have the same treatment, physically. Life, eye, tooth, hand, foot
This speaks of physical evils, not insults.
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also"
This is clearly a physical action and not an insult. Jesus already addressed insults earlier in chapter 5:
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
How do we overcome evil? A gun? A karate chop?
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
A believer in the New Covenant cannot live by the Old Covenant and remain.
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robertguwapito
New Member
Hello Plain n Simple, :smilewinkgrin:
Again, speaking of "You shall not murder" from Exodus 20:13, THE Rev. MATTHEW HENRY says, " The sixth commandment requires that we regard the life and the safety of others as we do our own. Magistrates and their officers, and witnesses testifying the truth, do not break this command. Self-defence is lawful; but much which is not deemed murder by the laws of man, is such before God. Furious passions, stirred up by anger or by drunkenness, are no excuse: more guilty is murder in duels, which is a horrible effect of a haughty, revengeful spirit."
:thumbsup:
Again, speaking of "You shall not murder" from Exodus 20:13, THE Rev. MATTHEW HENRY says, " The sixth commandment requires that we regard the life and the safety of others as we do our own. Magistrates and their officers, and witnesses testifying the truth, do not break this command. Self-defence is lawful; but much which is not deemed murder by the laws of man, is such before God. Furious passions, stirred up by anger or by drunkenness, are no excuse: more guilty is murder in duels, which is a horrible effect of a haughty, revengeful spirit."
:thumbsup:
plain_n_simple
Active Member
I'm exploring that question using the words of Jesus, the New Testament, and the things concerning Jesus in the Law and the Prophets.
You misunderstand. I see I have to explain more. First of all, a slap is a slap, and it is physical. But it is not a self defense situation. The person who slaps me is not trying to injure me physically (you can't do that with a slap), but is insulting me. Therefore the response should be spiritual (to a physical act) rather than physical. In response to an act of physical violence against myself or my loved ones or an innocent person which might harm that person, I will respond with measured violence designed to stop the harm, stop the evil (not repay it).
Now you've got it, but you don't know what you have! :smilewinkgrin: This OT passage is talking about vengeance, not self defense. If a person slaps me because of an evil I have done to him, I must not slap him back but simply take the insult. I must also not seek legal recourse, but respond in a spiritual way, loving my enemy.
Self defense is not about vengeance or hating an enemy, but about preventing harm, and thus preventing evil. Self defense is not about vengeance, therefore the passage in question, whether OT law or the NT words of Jesus, is not relevant to the OP. When I act in self defense, it is not acting against an enemy, it is not acting in revenge, it is preventing evil. Do you understand my position now?
Once again, self defense is about preventing evil. If I stop a man from killing me or my family, raping my wife, harming my children, I not only prevent evil to me and mine, I help the perpetrator by halting his evil act. If he goes to prison for assault (after I have stopped him), he will not be a murderer (which may happen if I do not stop him), which is a much worse crime. So I have prevented the worse evil by stopping the lesser evil.
Rom. 12:21 actually is a verse that is on the side of self defense. The Greek word for "overcome" there is nikao, the word for normally defeating something or someone. Now, if by means of my self defense skills I stop a murderer from killing, I have defeated evil by means of good. In fact, the term "good" here is in the Greek agathos, which doesn't mean "moral good" (which would be kalos) so much as "good methods." So self defense would be a valid interpretation of a way to defeat an evil deed.
Am I clear now?:saint:
plain_n_simple
Active Member
39..... but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Smite:
1. to strike or hit hard, with or as with the hand, a stick, or other weapon: She smote him on the back with her umbrella.
2. to deliver or deal (a blow, hit, etc.) by striking hard.
3. to strike down, injure, or slay:
This is an intended strike to cause physical injury, not merely an insult.
An insult was dealt with earlier in chapter 5:
" Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Moving on since we cannot agree on Matt 5
You say a Christian has a right to kill in self defense.
Jesus warned of doing such:
" for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
This is clearly using deadly force against deadly force, and includes preventing evil.
Luke 9
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
You will have to trust Jesus, who abides inside you, and has overcome the world, death, and hell to save you in every situation.
The word "save" comes from the Greek "Soteria" (you already know this John, humor me)
"Saved" does not only mean your ticket to heaven as many teach.
Saved, healed, delivered, set at safety, etc.
If Jesus can save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace, surely He can deliver us in any situation, without the believer using the unbelievers methods of self preservation.
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robertguwapito
New Member
Hi Plain n Simple :smilewinkgrin:
Now I make a New Testament move: John Gill, in his Gill's exposition of the Bible states, "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil,.... This is not to be understood of any sort of evil, not of the evil of sin, of bad actions, and false doctrines, which are to be opposed; nor of the evil one, Satan, who is to be resisted; but of an evil man, an injurious one, who has done us an injury. We must not render evil for evil, or repay him in the same way; see James 5:6. Not but that a man may lawfully defend himself, and endeavour to secure himself from injuries; and may appear to the civil magistrate for redress of grievances; but he is not to make use of private revenge. As if a man should pluck out one of his eyes, he must not in revenge pluck out one of his; or should he strike out one of his teeth, he must not use him in the same manner; but patiently bear the affront, or seek for satisfaction in another way."
It's now Baptist theologian John Gill vs. Plain N Simple...
:smilewinkgrin:
Now I make a New Testament move: John Gill, in his Gill's exposition of the Bible states, "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil,.... This is not to be understood of any sort of evil, not of the evil of sin, of bad actions, and false doctrines, which are to be opposed; nor of the evil one, Satan, who is to be resisted; but of an evil man, an injurious one, who has done us an injury. We must not render evil for evil, or repay him in the same way; see James 5:6. Not but that a man may lawfully defend himself, and endeavour to secure himself from injuries; and may appear to the civil magistrate for redress of grievances; but he is not to make use of private revenge. As if a man should pluck out one of his eyes, he must not in revenge pluck out one of his; or should he strike out one of his teeth, he must not use him in the same manner; but patiently bear the affront, or seek for satisfaction in another way."
It's now Baptist theologian John Gill vs. Plain N Simple...
:smilewinkgrin:
God coomanded His jewish peoples to kill when they went in to possess the land, authorized the state to kill off those ommiting capital Crimes in Romans, so why would he be against Hilself and say do not kill for justified cause?
You are right should be last resort, try to stop i possible...
You're evidently looking at an English dictionary. But it is the original Greek that is authoritative. The Greek word here for "smite" is hrapizo, which does mean to slap, not to punch. (A punch can kill a person, but a slap cannot even injure a person.) The same word is used only one other time in he NT, in Matt. 26:67, where it is clearly means "slap."
Once again you are misinterpreting. Jesus is referring to to a situation in which it was clearly God's will for Him to suffer. If I am being persecuted for the cause of Christ I will certainly be non-violent and rejoice at the persecution, even if I die (Matt. 5:10-12). However, if I see someone killing an innocent person, I will fight for that person's life, even to the point of laying down my own life (John 15:13), just as the book of Proverbs teaches (another passage you have yet to deal with).
If you take this passage to mean violence is always wrong, you have condemned Jesus Himself, who used violence to drive the money-changers out of the temple, His "Father's house." You have still not dealt with this passage. You cannot Scripturally make your point until you deal with how Jesus Himself used violence. And by the way, He will be incredibly more violent at His Second Coming, when He will destroy completely the armies gathered against Him. How can you possibly claim to be Scriptural in this discussion without dealing with this passage and the one in Proverbs??
So apparently if you see a woman or child being raped, a person being killed, etc., you will just let it happen. Is that correct? Say you are looking across the street and you see three men raping and killing a woman in an empty lot. What will you do? Call the police? Pray, "Dear Lord, please stop those bad men"? What will you do?
I left home, loved ones, friends, a career, land, everything I had and was to go to Japan as a missionary. You are teaching me nothing here.
This is basically a self-centered question. You keep talking about being rescued yourself in a self-defense situation through spiritual means. It does not answer the question: will you deliver an innocent person being killed? Will you obey the Bible, which says, "If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (Prov. 24:11-12)
I agree completely.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
We will never agree on this John. But I do appreciate your exhaustive study and taking the time to express your opinion on this subject. God bless.
I hope I've at least made you think. :wavey:
Yes, and don't mess with JOJ. He can bust your head! :laugh:
robertguwapito
New Member
Hi Plain n Simple :smilewinkgrin:
Haha, I guess you got checkmated there by John of Japan! The issue is--does Matthew 5:39 talk of a life-threatening situation? If it does not talk of such, then your whole case crumbles like a stale cookie.
The Greek of strike is "SLAP" which the NASB uses. It is ῥαπίζει, transliterated rapizei, which means to "strike with the palm of the hand." Therefore, Jesus instructs us not to resist a slap, which is the equivalent of an INSULT, and therefore not a life-threatening situation, get it?
Now, let us replace some of the words of Jesus to make his statement life-threatening, as you allege: "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If anyone strikes with a sword on your right arm, offer him your left arm also."
How insane! How ridiculous! Jesus would not have said such a thing, because, I repeat, He was not talking about a killing blow, but a SLAP, an INSULT. Get it?
Checkmated by John of Japan.
:smilewinkgrin:
Haha, I guess you got checkmated there by John of Japan! The issue is--does Matthew 5:39 talk of a life-threatening situation? If it does not talk of such, then your whole case crumbles like a stale cookie.
The Greek of strike is "SLAP" which the NASB uses. It is ῥαπίζει, transliterated rapizei, which means to "strike with the palm of the hand." Therefore, Jesus instructs us not to resist a slap, which is the equivalent of an INSULT, and therefore not a life-threatening situation, get it?
Now, let us replace some of the words of Jesus to make his statement life-threatening, as you allege: "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If anyone strikes with a sword on your right arm, offer him your left arm also."
How insane! How ridiculous! Jesus would not have said such a thing, because, I repeat, He was not talking about a killing blow, but a SLAP, an INSULT. Get it?
Checkmated by John of Japan.
:smilewinkgrin:
robertguwapito
New Member
Hi Plain n Simple :smilewinkgrin:
To you, to smite means to injure or slay. (Webster? :laugh
To us, to smite means to slap (ῥαπίζει, transliterated rapizei -- Greek!)
Does the English interpret the Greek, or should the Greek clarify the English?
Checkmate. :smilewinkgrin:
To you, to smite means to injure or slay. (Webster? :laugh
To us, to smite means to slap (ῥαπίζει, transliterated rapizei -- Greek!)
Does the English interpret the Greek, or should the Greek clarify the English?
Checkmate. :smilewinkgrin: