Is it Ok if men stay home with children while women work

[Bible-boy]

I am amazed how people want to focus on a FICTIONAL character in Prov 31 than what God's word commanded men to work and women to be keepers at home, that is for ALL people of ALL times. All of which were quoted from the N.T.

How about this for Prov 31...NNE knows how old her children are in this "story" they may well be grown or at least old enough to help out with her. meaning she still is first a mother and wife. That is the main jist of the prov. that her husband trust her and honored her and that her children rised up and called her blessed. meaning she was fullfilling her role as a wife and mother, not neglecting either.

So since Proverbs 31 is all a bunch of FICTION I assumed you'd be in favor if we all just took out our knives and cut it out of our Bibles? :BangHead:

 

[TBLADY]

TBLADY -- you respond as if this account of this woman is strickly in the Bible for entertainment purposes. Is becoming this woman difficult? Yes, but not impossible. Is a family following, living Eph 5 & 6 difficult? I know some that it's terribly difficult for, but it's not impossible.

What you wrote I agree with problem is, people are more focused not on a real person like Job, Jesus, Moses, Jospeh, Mary etc but a standard in the OT.

You are also not focused on all the problems that are associated with women working ourside the home, raising latch key children or children in days care and all the problems associated with doing so.

I want God's best for mine and my childrens life and my husbands and that can only be accomplished by being there FULL TIME for them.

Bible Boy. Again you along with DHK seem to want to link everything I say to ONLY Christians. This thread question applies to everyone in this world, not just Christians...just like my general comment about men not being as compassionate and empathetic as women. I wasn't just refering to Christians and neither was my pastor who said men as a whole self worth is in their job...yes I know for the Christian it is in Chrsit...but I wasn't just talking about Christians. But you guys put no understanding in statistics, so I can see where the narrowmindness comes from.

Don't people actual read what people write? If they did there wouldn't so much misunderstanding. I would make a comment,but then it might be taken as sexist....God forbid LOL

 

[TBLADY]

I have been the sole provider for my family when our kids were very young. I had great jobs in the engineering and environmental field. I have worked on huge government contracts up to as much as $40 million total (for the company I worked for not for me personally).

Good example, but not a great one, since the fact you were able to what you just discribed, showed you could be the sole provider and were. Now compare that to someone who NEVER made more than his wife and couldn't hold a job.

big difference I would say.

 

[TBLADY]

I'm surprised all the fundamentalist aren't jumping in on this one. Everyone I know believes that women should stay home with their children, home school them while the men provide.

This a very strong teaching among them, along with wearing dresses all the time.
Hey I just found another grey area.

 

[Bible-boy]

What you wrote I agree with problem is, people are more focused not on a real person like Job, Jesus, Moses, Jospeh, Mary etc but a standard in the OT.

You are also not focused on all the problems that are associated with women working ourside the home, raising latch key children or children in days care and all the problems associated with doing so.

I want God's best for mine and my childrens life and my husbands and that can only be accomplished by being there FULL TIME for them.

Bible Boy. Again you along with DHK seem to want to link everything I say to ONLY Christians. This thread question applies to everyone in this world, not just Christians...just like my general comment about men not being as compassionate and empathetic as women. I wasn't just refering to Christians and neither was my pastor who said men as a whole self worth is in their job...yes I know for the Christian it is in Chrsit...but I wasn't just talking about Christians. But you guys put no understanding in statistics, so I can see where the narrowmindness comes from.

Don't people actual read what people write? If they did there wouldn't so much misunderstanding. I would make a comment,but then it might be taken as sexist....God forbid LOL

If this thread question is intended to gain insight from everyone in the whole world and not simply the Christian prospective then all who have responded to you from the Christian prospective (not just DHK and myself) are likewise out of line or unable to understand what you are saying/seeking. This is a Christian message board. Only professing Christians are approved for membership (meaning only Christians can post messages). So yes in this forum I approach the majority of the discussions from a Christian prospective and expect the other posters to do the same. If I wanted to discuss how nonChristians view and respond to these issues I would join a secular message board and discuss away (and hopefully be able to witness for Christ while doing so). It was never the intent of the Baptist Board to serve as secular information dissemination forum. I can't understand why you would want to come into a Christian discussion/debate forum and base the majority of your discussions/debates on secular sources and secular generalizations.

Likewise, why would a pastor preach a sermon about male self-worth to a church that is primarily full of professing Christian men (I say this because nonChristian men simply are not flocking into church on Sundays or Wednesdays) and build his point around the idea of what the world says is driving nonChristian male self-worth?

 

[TBLADY]

Doesn't matter everything I have said applies to Christians...just don't put words in my mouth that are not there.

Even more so Christian mothers should stay home and Christian fathers should provide, as to not make light of God's word and to be an example to the world of what God has designed and what is best for ALL people. Are we not be Holy and seperate from the world?

You still haven't listed any benifits to the "Christian" women with small children has working outside the home? Please list those for me

 

[saturneptune]

Why do there always have to be "Baptist rules" of how to run your life in these threads? The man is the head of the family, according to Scripture. How does that in modern term him always going to work? It seems to me he is the spiritual head of the household taking care of his wife and children. It may be easier if he is the primary bread winner. I think each family through God's leadership should decide what is best for them and not worry about what a lot of "do it my way" people think.

 

[Bible-boy]

Doesn't matter everything I have said applies to Christians...just don't put words in my mouth that are not there.

I would ask the same from you. Likewise, everything you have said does not apply to Christians in the same manner as it would to nonChristians because some of the things you have said (particularly in Christian Radio thread) totally disregard the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

Even more so Christian mothers should stay home and Christian fathers should provide, as to not make light of God's word and to be an example to the world of what God has designed and what is best for ALL people. Are we not be Holy and seperate from the world? You still haven't listed any benifits to the "Christian" women with small children has working outside the home? Please list those for me

The problem is that you assume that I am arguing for or generally in favor of the things you pointed out in your last two sentences. I am not. Remember, you really started this thread seeking support from the general BB membership because DHK and I disagreed with you regarding the male ability (or inability) to show compassion. The only reason I have gotten involved regarding women working is because I saw someone holding up the Proverbs 31 woman as the model for Christian women but I felt their interpretation of the passage overlooked the fact that the Proverbs 31 woman is much much more than a homemaker, babysitter, and cook.

 

[IronWill]

Personally, I wouldn't mind being a kept man...:laugh::laugh:

 

[donnA]

You are using nothing shy of humanism to justify your desires. We do not need humanism to "explain away" the Word of God.

The LORD gave us a ways and a means. If a woman is married and has children and is living the Proverbs 31 life, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to have a secular job without setting biblical duties aside.

Your justification by talking about women doctors, pharmacists, cooks, etc.. holds no biblical grounds. I do not mean to sound blunt but there is only one Word and that is the Word of God.

I cannot help what the world wants to do. I cannot decide who will and who will not be woring at the Restaurant when I go to eat. All I can definitively answer for is me and mine.

My wife doesn't consider it a burden to stay home and be a wife and mother. She has a RN Nursing degree and has been offered upwards of 34 dollars an hour with benefits but she reufed. She knows where God wants her, at home being a wife and mother. She is very happy and thanks me often for allowing her giving her the oportunity to be the best wife and mother in the world! She loves it! SHe is in God's will. What more could we ask for.

I than the LORD for a wife who is willing to be the wife and mother He wants her to be.

My desires? I'm not sure what your talking about, thats not what my post was about.
I've been married 261/2 years and raised to adult sons, and have never worked. Are you sure your talking to me?
You say you can only answer for your family. So why would you or anyone else try and tell another family what to do?
If she objects to women working at all, then she must stand by that, and refuse to give her money to a place with working women. She isn't talking about herself, but women in general, all other women. Then if she dislikes and finds it biblically wrong for women to work, then she compromises what she beleives by supporting those women who work by going them her business and money.
How do you know it is impossible for a woman to have a job wiothout setting biblical duties aside? Just becasue your family can't manage it you think you can say that for all other women?
If a woman should not work, then they should not have wasted time and money on expensive educations they will not be using unless they violate scripture by doing so. Seems a waste of ones time and money given by God is a sin in itself.

 

[donnA]

Aagain another person not clearly reading my post. If a women is single and doesn't have small children, her working doesn't have a negative impact on the household or the children.

Facts are... women who work with small children have the negitive effects mentioned in my post that list what some of those can be....and then some.

Not saying women shouldn't work, even women with children...just be prepared not to have the best results from it. God wants the best for us.. therefore mothers working isn't God's best!

By the way proverbs 31 isn't talking about a real person, but an ideal one. A standard in which covers all bases...kind of like Job, how many people do you know like Job? None I bet...but he is a standard in which we should all want to obtain. Same with Jesus

How do you know all the women who work in these places you visit are single without children? Have you asked them? Or do you just continue to compromise scripture by supporting working mothers?

 

[donnA]

I am amazed how people want to focus on a FICTIONAL character in Prov 31 than what God's word commanded men to work and women to be keepers at home, that is for ALL people of ALL times. All of which were quoted from the N.T.

How about this for Prov 31...NNE knows how old her children are in this "story" they may well be grown or at least old enough to help out with her. meaning she still is first a mother and wife. That is the main jist of the prov. that her husband trust her and honored her and that her children rised up and called her blessed. meaning she was fullfilling her role as a wife and mother, not neglecting either.

If she is a fictional charcter I see no instructions for real women in the fictional story then, as none are given as a command, but a made up story about a made up woman.

 

[Bible-boy]

If she is a fictional charcter I see no instructions for real women in the fictional story then, as none are given as a command, but a made up story about a made up woman.

That's right Donna. My OT Professor at SEBTS taught us the books of the OT in the order based on the Hebrew Bible. In the Hebrew Bible the book of Proverbs precedes Ruth, followed by Song of Songs etc. The Hebrew order is not the same as in our English translations. Our English translations are based on the LXX and the Latin Vulgate ordering which is/are basically chronological. However, the Hebrew Bible orders the OT books according to thematic material.

So Proverbs closes with the Proverbs 31 woman. She is characterized as a woman of virtue (Prov. 31:10, NKJV), or a woman of excellence (Prov. 31:10, NASB), or a woman of noble character (Prov. 31:10, NIV). My professor (who is also a Hebrew language scholar) said that Prov. 31:10 could also be translated as, "A woman of strength, who can find one?" Now lets turn over to Ruth and see what it has to say about her. Speaking of Ruth Boaz says, "And now, my daughter, do not fear. I will do for you all that you request, for all the people of my town know that you are a virtuous woman (Ruth 3:11, NKJV). The Hebrew word for "virtuous woman" used here in Ruth is the exact same word used in Prov. 31:10. Additionally, the Prov. 31 woman considers a field and buys it (Prov. 31:16). Ruth meets Boaz while gleaning barley in a field and eventually she marries the owner of the field in effect she now owns the field (just like the Prov. 31 woman). Likewise, the Proverbs 31 woman's works are to be praised in gates of the city (Prov. 31:31). Boaz says that all the people of the town know that Ruth is a virtuous woman and he praises her and makes his marriage declaration in the town gates (Ruth 3:11-13; 4:1-12). Finally, it is said of the Proverbs 31 woman, "But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised (Prov. 31:30b, NKJV). Ruth a Moabite woman (not a Hebrew) says to Naomi (a Hebrew woman), "...Your people shall be my people, and your God shall be my God..." (Ruth 1:16, NKJV). Ruth committed herself to Naomi and became a God Fearer. There are other points of connection between the two books but I can't remember them off the top of my head. The point being that all this evidence points to Ruth as being the Proverbs 31 woman or at least the woman that Proverbs 31 models its character traits after.

 

[TBLADY]

OK I am still waiting for all the die hard fundamentalist and DHK to give their view or scripture to support women with small children in the work place. Seems they want to agree KJO and other non essentials.

And I am still waiting for all the benifts for the family of working mothers, other than bigger houses, more cars, keeping up with the jones and the womens self worth and getting away from her bratty kids (saw an article where a women actually said this is why she worked) love to hear it. I gave my list lets see yours.

Again what is God's best according to scripture?

Oh yeah, no one has yet to disput God's word on the verses i did give...so far all people want to argue are excpetions rather than the rule and twist my words around, casue they can't read what i actually wrote LOL

 

[Accountable]

My desires? I'm not sure what your talking about, thats not what my post was about.
I've been married 261/2 years and raised to adult sons, and have never worked. Are you sure your talking to me?
You say you can only answer for your family. So why would you or anyone else try and tell another family what to do?
If she objects to women working at all, then she must stand by that, and refuse to give her money to a place with working women. She isn't talking about herself, but women in general, all other women. Then if she dislikes and finds it biblically wrong for women to work, then she compromises what she beleives by supporting those women who work by going them her business and money.
How do you know it is impossible for a woman to have a job wiothout setting biblical duties aside? Just becasue your family can't manage it you think you can say that for all other women?
If a woman should not work, then they should not have wasted time and money on expensive educations they will not be using unless they violate scripture by doing so. Seems a waste of ones time and money given by God is a sin in itself.

Your judgment of my wife is with an uneducated answer. To educate the curious, my wife went to Nursing School and actually worked in a hospital before she took a fundamental look at God's Word. The Holy Spirit convicted her and she resigned her position. After many years of praying and studying God's Word, we have no plans of sending any of our daughters to College or University for "humanistics" indoctinating. We also do not plan to send our boys to any humanistic school of "higher" learning.

My wife will teach our daughter to cook, sew, garden, etc., etc.

I casted no judgement on your personal lifestyle, I merely debated on what grounds your blog was written. Scriptural, or humanistic.

I object to mothers working but I cannot be the sherrif of the world. I cannot but proclaim the truth. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. If I searched for a grocery store to buy food from that didn't hire women, I would starve to death. If I only went to a Doctors office that had no women nurses, I would never see a doctor.

I pray I haven't miss informed anyone of my intentions. I am not perfect nor would I blaspheme one who didn't agree with me 100%. According to Hebrews 6 we only go on if God permits.

God bless you for your raising your children yourself and not letting a daycare do it. God will reward you.

 

[Accountable]

Okay, take out the words "barefoot" and "pregnent" and the phrase "stay at home mom" and nothing that I said about the passage changes.

Likewise, are you implying that in the ancient Hebrew culture all lands were owned solely by women and that all land transactions were conducted solely by women?

Tell me do you read Hebrew? If so how much of the text speaking about the Prov. 31 woman in the market buying the raw material and selling her products to merchants is in the Hebrew masculine? And if the text uses masculine Hebrew verbs and nouns then it can not mean that this woman spent all her time in the market and engaging in business transactions solely with women. To force that meaning onto the text is to force your presupposition upon the text resulting in eisogesis.

Not to start another debate but I will say this. I speak English (and Spanish) I minister to people who spea either English or Spanish. I do not minister to those who spea Hebrew. I am satisfied that God gave me His Word in English. Till I minister to those speaking Hebrew, I will stic with the Word God gave us in English. God Bless.

Also, I in no means believe that the Virtuos woman stayed locked up in the house slaving for her husband. To believe so would be to deny God's Word. BUT to try and put the virtous women of Proverbs working for Century 21 selling realestate for a living while the daycare raises her children is and would be absurb. Selling at the market what she made at home is not the same as being a teller at the local grocery store while grandma teaches Jr. how to tie his shoes is not a good comparison.

My point is merely that in no way do I see the woman in Proverbs 31, nor in the N.T. trying to have the best of both worlds. She does all she does for the benefit of the family. So she can be called blessed by her children. This is my point.

Now days most children would call their grandmother or the babysitter blessed. They are the ones doing most of the raising.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

After many years of praying and studying God's Word, we have no plans of sending any of our daughters to College or University for "humanistics" indoctinating. We also do not plan to send our boys to any humanistic school of "higher" learning.

My wife will teach our daughter to cook, sew, garden, etc., etc.

Nothing wrong with learning those things, but denying education based on gender is sad. This puts your daughters at a disadvantage in earning a living. What if they have to earn their own way in life?

 

[Bible-boy]

Not to start another debate but I will say this. I speak English (and Spanish) I minister to people who spea either English or Spanish. I do not minister to those who spea Hebrew. I am satisfied that God gave me His Word in English. Till I minister to those speaking Hebrew, I will stic with the Word God gave us in English. God Bless.

Brother Accountable,

Before we continue this discussion I want to honor your work as a missionary. Praise the Lord for your faithfulness in responding to the great commission. May the Lord bless you and your ministry.

Getting back to the issue at hand, I must say that I find your response to my question regarding the original language of Proverbs somewhat lacking. It is true that one does not need to speak Hebrew in order to minister to anyone anywhere in the world. However, it is equally true that unless one can read and interpret the Bible from its original languages one is stuck using someone else’s translation, and therefore, ultimately someone else’s interpretation of God’s Word (because the translator must make interpretive decisions in order to make a translation). Furthermore, your response still does not answer the most basic part of my question to you. Your response fails to address the issue of whether or not the original text of the passage uses all female forms of verbs and nouns or not. If you are going to make a claim/interpretation as you did previously, that the Proverbs 31 woman conducted all her business dealings solely with other women, then the text of Scripture must bear such a claim/interpretation out. The English language does not employ gender specific verbs and nouns. Therefore, our English translations of the Bible can not answer the question. However, since you say that you speak Spanish there may be a way around this technicality. Spanish does employ gender specific verbs and nouns. Does your Spanish translation of the Bible use solely feminine verbs and nouns in the verses dealing with the Proverbs 31 woman’s buying from and selling to merchants? If not then the text, in a language that you do use, does not bear out the assertion that you previously made.

Also, I in no means believe that the Virtuos woman stayed locked up in the house slaving for her husband. To believe so would be to deny God's Word. BUT to try and put the virtous women of Proverbs working for Century 21 selling realestate for a living while the daycare raises her children is and would be absurb. Selling at the market what she made at home is not the same as being a teller at the local grocery store while grandma teaches Jr. how to tie his shoes is not a good comparison.

My point is merely that in no way do I see the woman in Proverbs 31, nor in the N.T. trying to have the best of both worlds. She does all she does for the benefit of the family. So she can be called blessed by her children. This is my point.

Now days most children would call their grandmother or the babysitter blessed. They are the ones doing most of the raising.

No one is claiming the extreme of “locked up in the house slaving for her husband.” You are taking the antithesis of the position I am espousing to a radical extreme in an attempt to caricature my position in a light that makes it easy to refute. In effect you have resorted to a straw man type of argument.

Likewise, no one is claiming that the Proverbs 31 woman has placed her children in the equivalent of a 21st Century “daycare.” In fact, I don’t recall making any statement about what her children were doing or where they were while she procured raw materials, produced her goods, carted them to market, conducted business with merchants, purchased land, or planted a vineyard. Again, you are taking my position to an extreme in order to cast it in a bad light thereby making it easy to refute. The picture you have painted is not necessarily the logical conclusion to what I have stated.

We must take the ancient biblical principle(s) found in the text of Proverbs 31 and apply them to 21st Century life for those to whom we seek to minister. We must not try to force 21st Century life/culture/meanings back upon the ancient text. This being the case we must recognize that the passage does indeed provide a biblical principle which permits married women (with or without children) to work outside the home. Now the question arises how can we accomplished this and still maintain all the other biblical principles found elsewhere in the Bible regarding gender roles for women and for the care of the family today?

For some the answer is easy and clear cut. They can not, due to the nature of their professional training and/or career path etc., manage to both work outside the home and fulfill all the other biblical principles and requirements for gender roles and care for the family. For these women and their families the only choice is for the husband to be the sole provider while the wife maintains the home and is the primary caregiver for the children. However, for others the possibility for the wife to work outside the home if she so chooses remains a viable biblical option. For example, my wife and I both worked while I was in seminary. She found a position as a contract employee that allowed her to telecommute much of the time, and she was free to set her own work hours making it possible for her to be with our middle school and high school aged kids when they were not at school. Yes, this required that we all had to have chores around the house; however, there is no biblical principle against the husband and children helping to accomplish the work of maintaining the home.

 

[Accountable]

Nothing wrong with learning those things, but denying education based on gender is sad. This puts your daughters at a disadvantage in earning a living. What if they have to earn their own way in life?

To believe this way for me would be to deny the wonderful power of God.

Why is it as baptists, we have true "faith" that we are eternally saved but we don't have the same faith in the other areas in our lives?

A few examples:

We believe that God is powerful enough to never let us loose our spiritual salvation yet He is not powerful enough to know how many children we should have. "I believe your powerful God but I know more than you when it comes to children. I only need two so I will take this harmful drugs and make the decision myself because your not powerful enough to make this decision." How sad.

We believe Gods Word is true yet we only pic which parts in which to be faithful to. "God really didn't mean that! He doesn't want mothers to to raise their children. That's why He invented daycares. I don't need to be a fulltime mother and wife. Things have changed so God won't hold me accountable." or "I know what God's Word says but I don't believe He is powerful enough to tae care of my daughter if she is faithful to His Word. She needs a big degrree to hang on the wall to remind her that there is a way out if she wants to slave to the world instead of raising her children. I want my daughter to know she can "be somebody." She doesn't have to do it God's way. We believe she needs an education just in case God doesn't take care of her needs for her being faithful to His Word."

Now I believe these statements to be as wrong as you do but when we take some matters into our own hands that God left directions for, we are giving no better an answer for them than the above statements.

God took care of my Grandmothers, who had no degree, my Great Grandmothers, who had no degree, my aunts, etc.

Let's just let God be God.

 

[abcgrad94]

I recently started working after-school daycare at my kids' Christian school. Most of the kids I watch are preschoolers with both parents working. Many of these little ones are at the school from 7 a.m. until 5:30 p.m. Mom and Dad drive brand new cars and have lots of money and huge houses, but no time for their children. The kids are tired, cranky, and constantly whining for attention or sleep. Sometimes the children get angry when their parents don't pick them up at a certain time. Although I do the best I can, I'm not their mother, and because there are so many children, I can't give them all the one-on-one attention they so desperately want.

I was told the daycare was started to help parents and teachers who needed an occasional evening out, or for kids whose parents couldn't get off work in time to pick them up from school. I'm not sure what went wrong, but if this is what is happening in the Christian realm, (worse in the non-Christian realm) I'm very worried about the next generation.