Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
[qb]Exactly my point. 2 Thess 2:13 tells what they were chosen for: Salvation. So we see that election is to salvation, which is different than the national election of Israel. So the analogy breaks down from the very beginning.
I address this nonsense below.
Before the NT were Gentiles chosen to hear the message, be the lineage of the Christ or to carry the inspired message from God? NO.
There were some Gentiles chosen to hear the message and some chosen to carry it. For instance, Nebuchadnezzar heard and carried it, as did Rahab, Ruth, etc. In fact, Ruth a Gentile was chosen to be in the lineage of Christ as was Rahab, now that I think of it. So your argument falls on all three points. However, it is still irrelevant.
That's the problem you Calvinists have, you take general statements about God's choosing a group of people through which to work and try to apply it to every individual situation. I don't deny that God chose for other groups throughout history to hear his message. Ninevah for example. But we are speaking generally, it was Israel who God chose to work through which is what set them apart from other nations. But you are right it's not that relevant to this discussion except to point out the fact that we already agree upon, "a group of people can be chosen for something other than belief." (I didn't know you had already acknowledged that point so we can move on)
Were the Gentiles chosen to hear the message evetually? Yes, which is the shocking and very contraversial news of the 1st century, which is why we have verses like 2 Thess 2:13 where Paul thanks God for his choosing the people of Thessolonica who were predominately Gentiles.
The controversy was that the Gentiles would have equal footing with the Jews in the church. IT Was no controversy that they would hear the message.
Reeeeeaaaaaly?
Let's go to Paul's letters to the church in Thessolonica shall we:
13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
What were the Jews doing? "Forbidding" the apostles from preaching to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.
You can also read about the Jersalem Council where they were deciding whether they should even allow Gentiles to be apart of the church unless they were circumcised and kept the law. They didn't want to accept the Gentiles unless they converted to Judiaism.
2 Thess. 2:13 teaches us that God chose the people of Thessalonica. And notice what he chose them to ... Go ahead, don't be frightened ... read it ... it's right there in the verse ... Now say it out loud with me -- S A L V A T I O N. See how easy that was ????
Larry, Larry, Larry. Your sacrasm doesn't suit you well.
Look at the verse again. They were chosen to be saved and sanctified through belief. Does God choose them to believe? No, he chose them to be saved THROUGH belief. Belief is their response to God's choosing to send them the message.
Through what means do they come to believe? The next sentence answers that question: "He called you to this through our gospel." Not through some secret inner effectual calling as you suppose, but through the GOSPEL, the spoken word. That is clearly the means by which God calls those whom he has elected to hear. He has elected the world to hear, not just the Jews any longer.
YES! The Mavs won again!!! Go DALLAS!
But you and they both know, deep in the little places they don't want to talk about, that they will not be able to beat the Lakers.
... So enjoy your parties ... They will be over soon
You are probably right (which would be about the only thing you have been right about so far), but there is still hope if we can keep knocking down the three!