Is it possible?

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
[qb]Exactly my point. 2 Thess 2:13 tells what they were chosen for: Salvation. So we see that election is to salvation, which is different than the national election of Israel. So the analogy breaks down from the very beginning.

I address this nonsense below.

Before the NT were Gentiles chosen to hear the message, be the lineage of the Christ or to carry the inspired message from God? NO.

There were some Gentiles chosen to hear the message and some chosen to carry it. For instance, Nebuchadnezzar heard and carried it, as did Rahab, Ruth, etc. In fact, Ruth a Gentile was chosen to be in the lineage of Christ as was Rahab, now that I think of it. So your argument falls on all three points. However, it is still irrelevant.

That's the problem you Calvinists have, you take general statements about God's choosing a group of people through which to work and try to apply it to every individual situation. I don't deny that God chose for other groups throughout history to hear his message. Ninevah for example. But we are speaking generally, it was Israel who God chose to work through which is what set them apart from other nations. But you are right it's not that relevant to this discussion except to point out the fact that we already agree upon, "a group of people can be chosen for something other than belief." (I didn't know you had already acknowledged that point so we can move on)

Were the Gentiles chosen to hear the message evetually? Yes, which is the shocking and very contraversial news of the 1st century, which is why we have verses like 2 Thess 2:13 where Paul thanks God for his choosing the people of Thessolonica who were predominately Gentiles.

The controversy was that the Gentiles would have equal footing with the Jews in the church. IT Was no controversy that they would hear the message.

Reeeeeaaaaaly?

Let's go to Paul's letters to the church in Thessolonica shall we:

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

What were the Jews doing? "Forbidding" the apostles from preaching to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.

You can also read about the Jersalem Council where they were deciding whether they should even allow Gentiles to be apart of the church unless they were circumcised and kept the law. They didn't want to accept the Gentiles unless they converted to Judiaism.

2 Thess. 2:13 teaches us that God chose the people of Thessalonica. And notice what he chose them to ... Go ahead, don't be frightened ... read it ... it's right there in the verse ... Now say it out loud with me -- S A L V A T I O N. See how easy that was ????

Larry, Larry, Larry. Your sacrasm doesn't suit you well.

Look at the verse again. They were chosen to be saved and sanctified through belief. Does God choose them to believe? No, he chose them to be saved THROUGH belief. Belief is their response to God's choosing to send them the message.

Through what means do they come to believe? The next sentence answers that question: "He called you to this through our gospel." Not through some secret inner effectual calling as you suppose, but through the GOSPEL, the spoken word. That is clearly the means by which God calls those whom he has elected to hear. He has elected the world to hear, not just the Jews any longer.

YES! The Mavs won again!!! Go DALLAS!

But you and they both know, deep in the little places they don't want to talk about, that they will not be able to beat the Lakers. ... So enjoy your parties ... They will be over soon

You are probably right (which would be about the only thing you have been right about so far), but there is still hope if we can keep knocking down the three!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
But you and they both know, deep in the little places they don't want to talk about, that they will not be able to beat the Lakers. ... So enjoy your parties ... They will be over soon

I don't see a NBA championship for Dallasites to celebrate this June, but I do see one for Texas - in San Antonio.

But I do see another Stanley Cup championship coming this June for Dallasites to celebrate.

Go Stars!

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
IT is certainly made up though, as evidenced by the lack of Scripture

It has been given ad nauseum both on this board and in the writings of Arminians. (See how that works both ways?)

But all Israel was chosen for a certain purpose. It does not say that the purpose was belief. YOU have taken "Chosen" with respect to Israel and tried to make it the same as "chosen" With respect to the church. The idea of "CHosen" is the same; the thing to which they were chosen is clearly different, as a reading of Scripture will show.

The idea of chosen is very different - agreed. But the nature of the group being chosen is the same. You haven't addressed that.

Useless. It did not address the question and provided no place in Scripture where "elected" is the result of belief. In fact, it contradicts you. It shows that the Israelites were chosen in spite of their unbelief, not becuase of it. OF course, you will (and should) run to the point that they were not chosen for salvation, and when you get there, you will find me waiting, still asking the question, where is election said to be the result of belief? [/QB]

I Chronicles 7 says that the purpose of Israel's being chosen is to redeem them. The nation of Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. (Isa. 60:1-3; Isa. 49:3,6) They were chosen to be of God (Deuteronomy 7:6-8). He chose them so that His name would be magnified (2 Samuel 7:23-27). Deuteronomy 28 states that their establishment as holy people was contingent on their belief and on their works. Romans 11 says very clearly that those "chosen" who did not believe were cut off of the main branch.

So this answers what they were chosen for: Redemption, To be a light to the rest of the world, and to magnify God's name. Clear parallel with the Church.

This also answers what their being chosen was contingent upon - their belief and their obedience in following the commands of the Lord.

There is your Scripture. We see that God chose a nation of people - the Jews. God chose them to redeem them, just as he chose the Church to provide redemption for them. A true Jew was marked by belief and obedience - those who did not were cursed and cast out. God chose the body of Christ to redeem them, have them be the light of the world, and to magnify the name of Jesus Christ. To enter into the Chruch, one must believe and obey.

Is that clear enough for ya?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
(See how that works both ways?)

But the question is which conforms to all the truth? Only our side does that so it really doesn't work both ways.

But the nature of the group being chosen is the same. You haven't addressed that.

This isn't true. Israel was chosen as a nation. The church is chosen as a body. The nature is very different. One depended on national heritage. The other depends on spiritual belief.

I Chronicles 7 says that the purpose of Israel's being chosen is to redeem them.

Not sure what your reference is here.

The nation of Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. (Isa. 60:1-3; Isa. 49:3,6) They were chosen to be of God (Deuteronomy 7:6-8). He chose them so that His name would be magnified (2 Samuel 7:23-27).

But that is not being chosen to be saved necessarily.

Deuteronomy 28 states that their establishment as holy people was contingent on their belief and on their works.

Actually it says that their establishment in the land was contigent on that.

[qutoe]Romans 11 says very clearly that those "chosen" who did not believe were cut off of the main branch. [/quote]But not at issue here.

So this answers what they were chosen for: Redemption, To be a light to the rest of the world, and to magnify God's name. Clear parallel with the Church.

Not at all. I already refuted that and did so here again. I am not denying that there is some parallels. The point is that corporate election of a nation (Israel) is not the same as personal election to salvation. Both are clearly taught, but they are not the same. Israel's election, like believers, is unconditional. God chose Israel not because they were greater in number but because he chose them (Deut 7). He remained faithful to them in both righteousness and judgment because he chose them.

This also answers what their being chosen was contingent upon - their belief and their obedience in following the commands of the Lord.

I didn't see that at all. I didn't see even one verse that remotely says that election to salvation is the result of belief.

Is that clear enough for ya?

Nope, becuase you didn't meet the objective which was to show from Scripture what you are trying to tell us. I remain unconvinced. Where does Scripture say that election is theresult of belief? We have seen Ray say and we have seen you say it. However, we want to see God say it.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I remain unconvinced. Where does Scripture say that election is theresult of belief? We have seen Ray say and we have seen you say it. However, we want to see God say it.

God never said this, why would He? Why would God choose to grant someone entrance into his covenant through the means of faith because they have faith? That is silly. It's like saying, "You can join the club if you have a membership."

God chooses them and then they have the ability to enter. In the eyes of the OT Jews, the Gentiles weren't being granted this ability because God wasn't making the offer to them. In the NT He was, thus the Gentiles were elected to hear the message just as the Jews were previously (Acts 28:28)

Everyone has been chosen to hear the message. First, it went to the Jews and then the Gentiles. Last time I checked that covered EVERYONE.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Everyone has been chosen to hear the message. First, it went to the Jews and then the Gentiles. Last time I checked that covered EVERYONE.

Then why have relatively few people gotten to hear the gospel message during their lifetime on this earth? I thought you just said that EVERYONE is chosen to hear the message. But since we know that a whole bunch of that EVERYONE haven't heard the gospel message since about 30 A.D., how do you explain how EVERYONE is chosen to hear the gospel?

 

[Yelsew]

With that rationale, it is clear to me that the same ratio of "the elect" would not hear either! You cannot point to any one individual and say that person is elect or not elect, you simply do not know, therefore your statements about the elect are just as vague as you accuse the non-Calvinist point of view of being.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
You cannot point to any one individual and say that person is elect or not elect

Before a person is saved you are spot on, Yelsew.

That is why we are to proclaim the gospel to all people, in addition to the simple fact that we are commanded by God to do so.

After we repent and believe, then we know we are among the elect according to 2 Peter 1:10.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
You cannot point to any one individual and say that person is elect or not elect

Before a person is saved you are spot on, Yelsew.

That is why we are to proclaim the gospel to all people, in addition to the simple fact that we are commanded by God to do so.

After we repent and believe, then we know we are among the elect according to 2 Peter 1:10. </font>[/QUOTE]If they are elect, why is it necessary to preach to them?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
If they are elect, why is it necessary to preach to them?

It is the means God has chosen. Just as God has chosen to use people in preaching instead of using angels or some other means.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
If they are elect, why is it necessary to preach to them?

It is the means God has chosen. Just as God has chosen to use people in preaching instead of using angels or some other means. </font>[/QUOTE]So what you are saying is that the elect cannot know they are elect until elected by God in this natural lifetime. Golly, Gee Whiz, that is what the Armenians have been saying all along!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
So what you are saying is that the elect cannot know they are elect until elected by God in this natural lifetime.

Nope. Election took place way on back in eternity. Calling takes place in time. I am afraid you are confusing election and calling. I hope this helps in unconfusing you.

 

[Yelsew]

That brings us back to, why, if one is elect, is it necessary for the elect to appear just like all others?

If one is elect, it is not necessary for them to hear the word and believe, because as I've seen posted by Calvinist adherents on a thread of this forum, the elect "shall be saved". If that is the case, then the elect need not come from unbelief to belief.

Furthermore, the Non-elect cannot come to belief because they are not elected to salvation.

Both are untenable to me, because God is no respecter of man, thus man cannot tell God who he must save, and God will save those whom he will, and Jesus, who is God the Son, said, "whosoever believeth in Him..."

All mankind are able to hear and believe. More will not than will. That does not mean that those who will are the elect from the foundation of the world but that they are the "whosoever believeth..."

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
1)If one is elect, it is not necessary for them to hear the word and believe,

2)because God is no respecter of man,

3)thus man cannot tell God whom He must save,

4) and God will save those whom He will,

5)All mankind are able to hear and believe.

6)That does not mean that those who will are the elect from the foundation of the world

1)Actually it is necessary. God uses means whether you appreciate the fact that He does or not.

2)That is why Calvinism is Biblical and your scheme is not. Your scheme makes God very much a respecter of persons, as you teach that salvation is based on something man does that shows he is smarter, wiser, luckier, etc. than those that do not repent and believe. Calvinism teaches the Biblical doctrine that salvation of the Lord.

3)Exactly what Calvinism teaches.

On the other hand, your scheme teaches that man tells God, in essence, whom He must save. You have man saying, "I believed and You, God, are obligated to save me because of what I did."

4)Again, exactly what Calvinism teaches

and what your scheme doesn't teach. See 3) above.

5)Actually, the Bible does not teach that every can believe. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit before saving faith takes place and we know that everyone on earth is not regenerated.

6)Actually, the Bible teaches that all of the elect eventually believe and all of those who believe are elect. But it is your choice, Yelsew, if you want to argue with the Bible.