Is it Right to Pray for Justice and Vengeance?

[Steven Yeadon]

Pray that God's will be done, and pray for our enemies.

This is very difficult,

But remember that sin--all sins--fall into one of two binary categories.

If the person that sins against you is subsequently saved and repents, then his sin (along with yours and mine!) is nailed to the cross and covered by the Blood.

If not...God has that sorted in the proper time, at the proper place and in the proper measure.

I am praying for my enemies and for their possible salvation and repentance, often before or just after praying for justice against them. I hope that informs things more.

I do have a question, though. Do you mean to say that we should never pray for justice under any circumstances?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If you are viewing the nonsense of the Liberal Movement and Agenda as persecution, I'm going to have to say I think your imprecations should cease:


Luke 9:54-56
King James Version (KJV)

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


Pray rather that God move in their hearts.

Our efforts should always be for the purpose of men being saved, not damned.

Even Liberals.




God bless.

Definitely food for thought, as I read it again more closely.

I feel you have made a biblical point I must line up with.

I would say the difference here is that I am going to someone else, a godly authority, God Himself, for justice and letting Him do it in His time. Although, you have convicted me of wanting my prayers answered right this minute. We are here to save and not destroy and in that comes the need to go with God's timing, even as I pray. I have to learn that lesson.

Although the parable of the persistent widow indicates that on matters of the saints praying for justice, those doing wrong enough to solicit such a response form a saint are perilously close to destruction to begin with. Although justice will come in His time, but hopefully and prayerfully they will repent, and there will be forgiveness. For now there is a need for perseverance for the benefit of our enemies, who may yet repent.

I do have a question, though. Do you mean to say that we should never pray for justice under any circumstances?

 

[supersoldier71]

I am praying for my enemies and for their possible salvation and repentance, often before or just after praying for justice against them. I hope that informs things more.

I do have a question, though. Do you mean to say that we should never pray for justice under any circumstances?

I don't presume to tell you exactly what you should pray for, that's the domain of the Holy Spirit.

Personally, when I pray for "justice", what I really mean is revenge, which clearly is NOT something a believer should do, so I don't.

Understand that I'm describing my failings, not anyone else's.

I think it is probably healthier to pray for justice in a global sense, and mercy in the individual sense, but I'm not asserting that this is or should be normative for anyone but me.

 

[Aaron]

Rev 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

[HankD]

It seems that God sets a limit to His patience.

But when it runs its course He executes His wrath which is never pretty.

We should keep that in mind when we pray.

 

[Alcott]

Revelation 18:6.

 

[HankD]

Revelation 18:6.

NIV Revelation 18:6 Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup.

I wondered - perhaps "vengeance is mine" says the LORD because we would be too harsh but perhaps we would be more merciful than God.

David wondered that and he was later sorry he did.

 

[Darrell C]

What you refer to, the average liberalizers of America, they would be mild sinners compared to what I am talking about generally. I mean, I imagine in a prayer against Christian persecutors and harmers of the lowly, they may come up before the LORD. But I am not praying against them primarily, and they are not even really on my mind when I pray.

I am far more angry at aborters or those preaching perverted sexuality to children than the average liberal. That forgets though the crimes against our Brethren overseas or against the lowly the world over. To America's credit, right or left, we try and offer our lowly people some assistance. How do I put it, I am praying primarily for justice against those that torment people here on earth.

Again, you need to pray for them, not for vengeance. The only remedy for a liberal mindset is the Lord.


God

 

[Darrell C]

Definitely food for thought, as I read it again more closely.

I feel you have made a biblical point I must line up with.

I would say the difference here is that I am going to someone else, a godly authority, God Himself, for justice and letting Him do it in His time. Although, you have convicted me of wanting my prayers answered right this minute. We are here to save and not destroy and in that comes the need to go with God's timing, even as I pray. I have to learn that lesson.

Although the parable of the persistent widow indicates that on matters of the saints praying for justice, those doing wrong enough to solicit such a response form a saint are perilously close to destruction to begin with. Although justice will come in His time, but hopefully and prayerfully they will repent, and there will be forgiveness. For now there is a need for perseverance for the benefit of our enemies, who may yet repent.

I do have a question, though. Do you mean to say that we should never pray for justice under any circumstances?

If God dealt out Justice, you and I would have probably been dead long ago, brother. Instead He has dealt with us in great mercy. Every person involved in the Liberal Movement is no different than you and I before conversion. You and I were no less worthy of Justice, but, somewhere along the line there was a Saint of God involved in our being converted from someone just as vile in the sight of a Righteous God as those you speak of.

It isn't a matter of "praying for Justice," it's a matter of understanding that God has already told us Justice is coming, but in the meantime, we are to be busy with a focus on leading the lost to Christ. If a Liberal looks at statements from the Body of contempt it will only harden their hearts. But if they see the love of God in our hearts, despite their actions, and a sincere desire to see them blessed, I think that will go a lot further.

That doesn't mean that when we get the opportunity to contend with a Liberal we sugar-coat the truth. Give no quarter and ask none. But that is more appropriate in a one-on-one discussion, rather than general discussion which only serves to bolster their rebellion against the will of God.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Luke 18:1-8
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Compare with:

9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her. Rev 18

10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians were marching after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto Jehovah.
13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which he will work for you to-day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to-day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
14 Jehovah will fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
30 Thus Jehovah saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea-shore.
31 And Israel saw the great work which Jehovah did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared Jehovah: and they believed in Jehovah, and in his servant Moses. Ex 14
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto Jehovah, and spake, saying, I will sing unto Jehovah, for he hath triumphed gloriously: The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. Ex 15

...not only pleading for vengeance, but rejoicing when it is done.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

-EDIT-

I just saw your second reply...

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Again, you need to pray for them, not for vengeance. The only remedy for a liberal mindset is the Lord.

This isn't about liberally minded people really. It is about tormentors of the lowly and saints. I think you misunderstand my two replies.

If you say that I should give sexual abusers and violent oppressors the complete mercy you argue for, then I understand your position. I guess the issue I have with it is that it sounds too much like pacifism, but I could be wrong.

 

[Darrell C]

This isn't about liberally minded people really. It is about tormentors of the lowly and saints. I think you misunderstand my two replies.

Twice you brought up issues that deal with the Liberal Agenda, so it seems that in view is pretty much something I think we all have a problem with (most of us). I prefer to engage in discussions with those people directly. It never does any good simply to complain about it amongst ourselves.

If you say that I should give sexual abusers and violent oppressors the complete mercy you argue for, then I understand your position. I guess the issue I have with it is that it sounds too much like pacifism, but I could be wrong.

You can check out the discussions I have on this Forum...I don't think you are going to get the idea I am pacifistic when it comes to debating Doctrine.

And we need to keep in mind that it is the Doctrine of Liberals we need to contend with, not o much the people. They might deny their views constitute religious practice, but that is what it is, and we should approach that discussion as such. It is their Doctrine that has to be addressed, and until we can address that, we are only stating opinions which never profit anyone anything.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

This isn't about liberally minded people really. It is about tormentors of the lowly and saints. I think you misunderstand my two replies.

If you say that I should give sexual abusers and violent oppressors the complete mercy you argue for, then I understand your position. I guess the issue I have with it is that it sounds too much like pacifism, but I could be wrong.

God has instructed us to love OUR enemies. NEVER should we love HIS enemies. Psalms 139:19-24

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rev 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So ‘yes’ would be your answer.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

God has instructed us to love OUR enemies. NEVER should we love HIS enemies. Psalms 139:19-24

Kyredneck you have a point that we are supposed to hate those that hate the LORD...how do you reconcile Psalm 139 with the Sermon on the Mount?

In fact I will make that a general question for everyone:

How do we reconcile Psalm 139:19-24 with the Sermon on the Mount?

Psalms 139:19-24

19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Matthew 5:38-48

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

-

It appears that when I can reconcile these verses and others I will search for, I have my answer. For now, I believe that what is going on is that we are to give as much love as we can to our enemies; Yet, this is to be done within the context of pursuing justice for sin through proper authorities (government and the LORD Himself). I say this, because no where does it seem that the apostles were advocating strict pacifism coupled with love for enemies towards evildoers.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Kyredneck you have a point that we are supposed to hate those that hate the LORD...how do you reconcile Psalm 139 with the Sermon on the Mount?

In fact I will make that a general question for everyone:

How do we reconcile Psalm 139:19-24 with the Sermon on the Mount?

Psalms 139:19-24

19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Matthew 5:38-48

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

-

It appears that when I can reconcile these verses and others I will search for, I have my answer. For now, I believe that what is going on is that we are to give as much love as we can to our enemies; Yet, this is to be done within the context of pursuing justice for sin through proper authorities (government and the LORD Himself). I say this, because no where does it seem that the apostles were advocating strict pacifism coupled with love for enemies towards evildoers.

Initially, the disciples, along with most Jews, were looking for the Messiah to form a worldly kingdom which would rise up and throw off their oppressors (Rome). This is why most Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because He made it clear that He was forming the Kingdom of God.
Jesus didn't hate unbelievers or even those who hated God. He reached out to them to accept His message of God's forgiveness and love. I think he did count the Scribes and Pharisees among His enemies because they were hypocrites and thought they were better than anyone else. I also put in this category the lukewarm whom Jesus said He would spew out of his mouth. Jesus taught that we should love our enemies.

[Mat 5:44 KJV] 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

We don't see a lot of love coming from professing Christians today. In fact, we see a lot of hate directed at their political opponents. This is totally foreign to the teaching of Christ and does a lot of harm to the message of His Church.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

As hard as it sometimes is, I rarely ask for anything in prayer. To ask for vengeance when God already claimed it as his seems selfish. I’m not seeing a big problem in asking for justice. But I try to simply say “thy will be done”.

 

[Agent47]

God has instructed us to love OUR enemies. NEVER should we love HIS enemies. Psalms 139:19-24

Can you have your enemies who are not God’s enemies?

 

[Agent47]

As hard as it sometimes is, I rarely ask for anything in prayer. To ask for vengeance when God already claimed it as his seems selfish. I’m not seeing a big problem in asking for justice. But I try to simply say “thy will be done”.

2 Timothy 4:14 (ESV)
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.

While Stephen prayed for forgiveness of those who killed him, Paul seems to overlook that and ‘let’ God punish them. It’s almost as if he wished for it,looked forward to it