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Is it sin to lie or kill for the right MOTIVE?

Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Luke has been making these arguments regarding sin and motives:

"Motive is what makes something good or evil."

"God's motive was high and holy. Therefore God willing that sin should exist does not make God a sinner because MOTIVE is what makes something sin or righteous."

"Satan did it- but so did God... the deed was not morally equivalent. Satan did it for evil. God did it for good. The immediate result was bad. That was Satan's motive. The ultimate result was great good. That was God's motive."

"An act is righteous or unrighteous based on the motive."

"The act is not what is righteous or righteous; the motive is what makes it righteous or unrighteous."
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So, by this logic, if Luke believes I'm spreading a false doctrine would it not be acceptable for him to lie about me to discredit me in order to stop false doctrine from being spread? Or for me to do the same to him?

Why not kill me to stop heresy? The motive is good, isn't it?

What about those who kill abortionist? There motive is good, isn't it?

Please explain why this argument is good or bad in your opinion...
 
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freeatlast

New Member
Skandelon said:
Luke has been making these arguments regarding sin and motives:



So, by this logic, if Luke believes I'm spreading a false doctrine would it not be acceptable for him to lie about me to discredit me in order to stop false doctrine from being spread? Or for me to do the same to him?

Why not kill me to stop heresy? The motive is good, isn't it?

What about those who kill abortionist? There motive is good, isn't it?

Please explain why this argument is good or bad in your opinion...
Click to expand...

Your question is somewhat flawed as it gives a negative and a positive and seeks the same answer.
As for killing we are allowed to take life for personal protection, in war, and for punishment where the law has been violated. In fact it is a command where someone has violated certain laws.

As for lying scripture never gives permission for that so the answer is no we are never to lie to justify something we feel is right. If simple rational thinking were allowed to override prohibitions against sin then there would be no sins at all since all sin can be rationally overcome by the sinner. In fact a woman who is a prostitute can rationalize she has to do that to feed herself and since she does it without any emotional attachment she is justified. The homosexual rationalizes his/her actions because they are in love. The thief because he is only stealing from the rich who can afford it. The abortionist because the unborn is not a person. And the worst of all the claimed Christian because no one is perfect and so on. Of course all this would be self deception as is any sin we might justify.
 
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G

glfredrick

New Member
Complicated question. You win no matter who says what.

You practicing to be a lawyer? :laugh:

But, I know that you'll press me for an answer to your question anyway, so here goes. Yes, one is a sinner. Motive is not all. There is word, thought, and deed. Any one can condemn the doer as a sinner.

Isn't God's grace utterly fantastic? The only way we can stand before Him righteous is based on Christ's imputed righteousness. What a great gift from a Great God!
 
Skandelon

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
glfredrick said:
But, I know that you'll press me for an answer to your question anyway, so here goes. Yes, one is a sinner. Motive is not all. There is word, thought, and deed. Any one can condemn the doer as a sinner.

Isn't God's grace utterly fantastic? The only way we can stand before Him righteous is based on Christ's imputed righteousness. What a great gift from a Great God!
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We actually agree on this point. :thumbsup:

Just wanting to see how Luke replies now...
 
M

matt wade

Well-Known Member
Motive doesn't come into play. Sin is sin, regardless of whether you even believe you are sinning.

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
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L

Luke2427

Active Member
Skandelon said:
Luke has been making these arguments regarding sin and motives:



So, by this logic, if Luke believes I'm spreading a false doctrine would it not be acceptable for him to lie about me to discredit me in order to stop false doctrine from being spread? Or for me to do the same to him?

Why not kill me to stop heresy? The motive is good, isn't it?

What about those who kill abortionist? There motive is good, isn't it?

Please explain why this argument is good or bad in your opinion...
Click to expand...

We leave judgment to God and the State which God has endorsed to judge the affairs men upon earth.

You did not make an argument yourself. I await your argument against the idea that motive is what makes a thing good or evil on the part of the one doing it.
 
A

Amy.G

New Member
Luke2427 said:
We leave judgment to God and the State which God has endorsed to judge the affairs men upon earth.

You did not make an argument yourself. I await your argument against the idea that motive is what makes a thing good or evil on the part of the one doing it.
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If a woman is raped and has an abortion because she cannot bear the thought of carrying the baby of her rapist, is her motive good?
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
matt wade said:
Motive doesn't come into play. Sin is sin, regardless of whether you even believe you are sinning.
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Sin is sin exclusively BECAUSE of motive. Plain and simple.

Motive behind sin is the idolatrous exaltation of self rather than the appropriate debasement of self before Holy God.

We come forth from the womb with this self exalting, God debasing nature.

It is from the heart that sin comes. Sin is not the deed itself. If I slip and cut your throat on accident it is not murder. Murder is only murder if the motive is self centered ignoring the demands of Holy God.
 
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Amy.G

New Member
My point is that God decides what sin is. We cannot just say it's according to motive because we cannot always see what a person's motive is.
God sets the standards for righteousness and He does not change, so when you say something like God can do "anything" and it's right is implying that God can change His own standards to suit Himself. God does not change and He does not expect us to follow an ever changing set of rules.
 
M

matt wade

Well-Known Member
Luke2427 said:
Sin is sin exclusively BECAUSE of motive. Plain and simple.

Motive behind sin is the idolatrous exaltation of self rather than the appropriate debasement of self before Holy God.

We come forth from the womb with this self exalting, God debasing nature.

It is from the heart that sin comes. Sin is not the deed itself. If I slip and cut your throat on accident it is not murder. Murder is only murder if the motive is self centered ignoring the demands of Holy God.
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How do you reconcile the account in Genesis 20 then? According to God, Abimelech was going to sin even though he had no idea that Sarah was Abraham's wife. Abimelech believed that Sarah was an available woman and not married.
 
I

idonthavetimeforthis

New Member
Amy.G said:
??? You missed the point. Maybe I was too vague. God is always in control. If you knew what my life has been like for the past year you would know that I trust God to be in control. :)
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To suggest that a woman can have an abortion because she was raped is to suggest that God is not in complete control. Maybe I misunderstood.
 
A

Amy.G

New Member
idonthavetimeforthis said:
To suggest that a woman can have an abortion because she was raped is to suggest that God is not in complete control. Maybe I misunderstood.
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Yes. You did. I do not condone abortion even in the case of rape. My question was about motive only. Maybe I should delete that post. Bad example.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Amy.G said:
My point is that God decides what sin is. We cannot just say it's according to motive because we cannot always see what a person's motive is.
God sets the standards for righteousness and He does not change, so when you say something like God can do "anything" and it's right is implying that God can change His own standards to suit Himself. God does not change and He does not expect us to follow an ever changing set of rules.
Click to expand...

We do not have to know what motive is.

God does.

That is enough.

Who cares what WE know?

R.C. Sproul writes,

"In the least transgression I set myself above the authority of God, doing insult to His majesty, His holiness,and His sovereign right to govern me. Sin is a revolutionary act in which the sinner seeks to depose God from His throne. Sin is a presumption of supreme arrogance in that the creature vaunts his own wisdom above that of the Creator, challenges divine omnipotence with human impotence, and seeks to usurp the rightful authority of the cosmic Lord."[2]
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