Is it Typical In IFB Churches?

[matt wade]

Although I won't call KJVO heretics, I believe you are missing the boat on what KJVO is. It's not what you are describing. Perhaps ask Luke2427 to elaborate on just what he means here. It's not simply calling another an heretic over their choice of text brother.

- Peace

The problem is that Luke2427's take on KJVO simply isn't reality. I am KJVP (probably KJVO by yours and Luke2427's standards). I go to a KJVO church. I've been to other KJVO churches. I know many KJVO people.

Here's what Luke2427 says on KJVO:

If KJVO has not been divisive then NO doctrine in history ever has been. KJVO is a new doctrine invented by people who do not CARE about what the rest of the Body of Christ has ALWAYS believed. This is the same attitude that all heretics have possessed. It condemns all Christians who use other versions as either lost altogether or replacing the Word of God with evil perversions of God's Word. These Christians are ostracized and condemned. That is the absolute ESSENCE of divisive doctrine, i.e. heresy.

KJVO brings into question the orthodox view of inspiration and replaces it with a weird, twisted view of double inspiration. The idea is that God did inspire the original words then he did it again about 1600 years later with the KJV. That is simply not the orthodox view of inspiration- at ALL.

So, let's break down the arguments.

1. KJVO is divisive. Something is divisive, so it's heresy? Please, let's move on.

2. KJVO is a new doctrine invented by people who do not CARE about what the rest of the Body of Christ has ALWAYS believed. New doctrine? well, considering that modern version didn't exist until somewhat recently, it sort of has to be new.

3. It condemns all Christians who use other versions as either lost altogether or replacing the Word of God with evil perversions of God's Word. This is simply false. KJVO does not say that people are lost if they use another version. They may say that other versions are perversions or not accurate translations of God's Word, but this is a far cry from basing someone's salvation on a particular version.

4. KJVO brings into question the orthodox view of inspiration and replaces it with a weird, twisted view of double inspiration. Simply not true. Double inspiration is something held by a very few, very limited, and very fringe group of people. The vast majority of KJVO do not hold this view. Even the "Sword of the Lord" folks that Luke2427 like to rail against don't hold to double inspiration (see article on God's Word in this Sword of the Lord http://www.swordofthelord.com/SwordWeb.pdf).

 

[matt wade]

The issue is when the KJVO followers say that anyone who uses a modern Bible version is using a perversion and going to hell because you cannot be saved with these bibles from hell. THAT is heresy.

Once again, KJVO followers do not say this. A very small, very limited, and very fringe group might. The vast majority of KJVO do not hold to this.

 

[preacher4truth]

The issue is when the KJVO followers say that anyone who uses a modern Bible version is using a perversion and going to hell because you cannot be saved with these bibles from hell. THAT is heresy.

I took over the pastorate of such a church. This church was associated with many other like churches and pastors/evangelists. Even after candidating, and knowing I used the KJV but did not preach ABOUT the KJV I was brought in.

I actually had a deacon, while we were on vacation, tell the church from the pulpit "I don't care what our preacher says, if you are using anything other than the 1611, you're going to Hell!" That was his last stand as a deacon.

The sad thing is, the same will tell you Jesus is the only way to heaven. Which is it? Jesus only, or Jesus and the Bible you use?

Yep, I'd call that heresy.

 

[preacher4truth]

The problem is that Luke2427's take on KJVO simply isn't reality. I am KJVP (probably KJVO by yours and Luke2427's standards). I go to a KJVO church. I've been to other KJVO churches. I know many KJVO people.

I don't judge a person on the version one uses, so your feeling that I would call you KJVO is unfounded. You really haven't paid attention to what I really believe. Quit lumping me into a group, which is what you are accusing me of doing to you, which I haven't.

By the way divisive and heresy are the same thing. It is disunity, divisiveness, schismatic, party as in divided from the rest.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

3. I don't know of a single verse that states that KJVO is a false doctrine. In fact, for 300 years it wasnt an issue, everybody in the English speaking world used it. So what makes it evil now?

There is not a single verse which states that the KJVO is a Scriptural doctrine. There were other English translations which predated the KJV: Tyndale, Wycliffe, Geneva, etc...

4. Calling brothers and sisters in Christ heretics just because you don't agree with their choice of text seems quite sinful to me.

I've heard KJVO'ers call non-KJV users "heretical" on many occasions.

Leave those people alone. If God wants them to use a different Bible version then He will lead them to it.

This presupposes that He is leading them to hold to the KJVO position; which is historically fallacious & Biblically unfounded.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't get the animosity towards KJVO. If they want to use the KJV exclusively, then let them.

1. The KJV is the Word of God. It;s not like they are using the Book of Mormon or something.

It is indeed the Word of God , as is also Nasv/Niv/Esv/HCSB etc!

2. They are leading people to Christ. They are carrying out the Great Commission.

Great!

3. I don't know of a single verse that states that KJVO is a false doctrine. In fact, for 300 years it wasnt an issue, everybody in the English speaking world used it. So what makes it evil now?

NNE states here that using the KJV is wrong, just that stating that it is the ONLY Word of God to us today, that God preserved it as THE word today ONLY Bible to study/teach from, that is wrong!

You do know Church used Bishop bible/geneva Bible etc besides KJV also?

4. Calling brothers and sisters in Christ heretics just because you don't agree with their choice of text seems quite sinful to me.

ONLY heretical in their teaching that KJV is best/only wor dof God for today!

Leave those people alone. If God wants them to use a different Bible version then He will lead them to it.

John

Basically, IF those holding to KJVO would realise that the church NEVER has held to such a position until recent times, and that even others holding to KJV preferened due to text used of the TR, would agruethat other versions are still "OK" to be used, then we all could get along!

 

[JesusFan]

The problem is that Luke2427's take on KJVO simply isn't reality. I am KJVP (probably KJVO by yours and Luke2427's standards). I go to a KJVO church. I've been to other KJVO churches. I know many KJVO people.

Here's what Luke2427 says on KJVO:



So, let's break down the arguments.

1. KJVO is divisive. Something is divisive, so it's heresy? Please, let's move on.

The motivating force behind KJVO is though not from the Lord, so that would make it problematic!

2. KJVO is a new doctrine invented by people who do not CARE about what the rest of the Body of Christ has ALWAYS believed. New doctrine? well, considering that modern version didn't exist until somewhat recently, it sort of has to be new.

Point is that the church NEVER has stated just one version is the only word of God, unless one counts the RCC take on just one official Bible!

3. It condemns all Christians who use other versions as either lost altogether or replacing the Word of God with evil perversions of God's Word. This is simply false. KJVO does not say that people are lost if they use another version. They may say that other versions are perversions or not accurate translations of God's Word, but this is a far cry from basing someone's salvation on a particular version.

KJVO make wild accusations against those who use modern bibles, saying that they are perverted/using Satanic versions instead of the true word of God!

4. KJVO brings into question the orthodox view of inspiration and replaces it with a weird, twisted view of double inspiration. Simply not true. Double inspiration is something held by a very few, very limited, and very fringe group of people. The vast majority of KJVO do not hold this view. Even the "Sword of the Lord" folks that Luke2427 like to rail against don't hold to double inspiration (see article on God's Word in this Sword of the Lord http://www.swordofthelord.com/SwordWeb.pdf).

Think that MOST of the KJVO would hold to KJV being ONLY version for today. ONLY word of God today, rest are Satanic etc...

Again, those holding to KJVP would hold as you have been saying , the KJVO pretty much as Luke and I are saying!

So long as we can define just what the positions are held by both sides, would make it easier to jave a chrsitian like discussion/dialog moving forward!

 

[matt wade]

I don't judge a person on the version one uses, so your feeling that I would call you KJVO is unfounded. You really haven't paid attention to what I really believe. Quit lumping me into a group, which is what you are accusing me of doing to you, which I haven't.

My comment wasn't meant to lump you into a group, so I apologize if it came across that way. I simply meant that I classify myself as KJVP, but would likely be classified as KJVO by others, because I don't believe that there is another English version that is true to God's Word. I am open to other English versions being created (which is why I call myself KJVP), but I don't currently believe they exist. By most people's standards I would be KJVO, I hope that clarifies.

By the way divisive and heresy are the same thing. It is disunity, divisiveness, schismatic, party as in divided from the rest.

If divisiveness and heresy are the same thing, then shall we apply that test to Calvinism, The Gospel, Jesus Christ, literal creation? All these things are divisive, would you call them heresy?

 

[DHK]

Like you said, you don't know.

I said from my experience, which is vastly different from yours, the type of IFB church you describe is in the minority.

Guess what? I do know. And it's not only MO.

Read carefully. Missouri wasn't the only state that I mentioned. I realize that it is in other states. I have personally traveled through more than 60% of your states, and have visited a good part of the IFB churches in each one. I am not the one that is blind here.

Pay attention. It's also AR, OK, TX, some parts of KS and MO. It's also in other states as attested on here.

And perhaps it is. Perhaps there maybe such a church in every state. Then praise God that you will have a Baptist church in every state that preaches the gospel. The closest thing within two hours of the town my son lives in that preaches the gospel is a Pentecostal church. So thank the Lord that there are churches that preach the gospel even though they are not your stripe and color, nor mine. However, they are in the minority. I do know that much.

Another thing to add, the College I attended, a huge chunk of the men there seeking the pastorate were guess what? That's right, KJVO. We also lived next to several couples from school who were, you guessed it KJVO.

Then do this for me. Make a comprehensive list of all colleges that you believe are IFB or where IFB churches would send their college students (not KJVO only, but all IFB churches), thus that would include places like BJU. Then out of all those colleges how many of them are KJVO, and which ones would they be. I only know of two or three. And there are a lot of colleges.

However you got they are more in Ohio is beyond me, obviously you're not paying attention, which his probably the same reason you didn't notice more KJVO churches in the first place.

I didn't say more in Ohio. I said there are some in Ohio as well.

Since you've brought up attitude, let me say I'm concerned about you and your attitude DHK. When a preacher tells the truth about what goes on, you deem that as an attack? That's interesting. It's also incorrect in its assessment. You need to react to truth in a different manner than you have here, and leave out your pejorative disparaging attitude towards others you don't want to agree with. Not that you don't agree with them, you don't want to agree with them. I recall in another post you laying someone out for not believing your testimony as an "ex RCC" and calling that a personal attack for doubting you? I draw the same conclusion here, using your methods.

Your opinion is not truth. If you are so right on this issue, then document it. You haven't been truthful one bit. You have attacked, but not with facts. You have thrown out your opinions about the IFB, the KJVO, etc., but you have not backed up anything with facts. Document what you say or it is your character, your attitude that is put in question.

But hey, have a good day anyhow. I really couldn't care less what you think of me and the truth I've shared.
- Peace

You have shared opinion. Truth comes with evidence.

 

[Phillip]

I don't get the animosity towards KJVO. If they want to use the KJV exclusively, then let them.

1. The KJV is the Word of God. It;s not like they are using the Book of Mormon or something.

2. They are leading people to Christ. They are carrying out the Great Commission.

3. I don't know of a single verse that states that KJVO is a false doctrine. In fact, for 300 years it wasnt an issue, everybody in the English speaking world used it. So what makes it evil now?

4. Calling brothers and sisters in Christ heretics just because you don't agree with their choice of text seems quite sinful to me.

Leave those people alone. If God wants them to use a different Bible version then He will lead them to it.

John

John, I think the way the pastor I am referring to is not very Biblical when answering your remarks on the KJVO; here is how he will preach:

"Now I'm going to read out of the KJB the true words of God and not the Non-Inspired Version that is straight from the devil himself."

"There have been 7 revisions of the 1611 and seven is God's number so it has to be the perfect Word of God and therefore is more accurate than old manuscripts."

"We have THE Bible in the KJB and all other Bibles have to be translated from it or they are not accurate."

"The Chinese Bible is wrong because they didn't use the KJB to translate it. They used older Greek and Hebrew manuscripts."

"You cannot be saved using a Non-Inspired Version or any other Bible except the KJB which we know are the perfect words of Christ including punctuation and chapter/Verse numbering."

I think you can see how KJVO is hurting churches. These are comments I have heard many Sundays.

"Every translation that is not the KJB comes straight from hell (or Satan);" which ever mood he's in its one or the other.

Why do I still go there? I was asked this question and answered it in another thread. My daughter and her family were living a very worldly life and now they are going to the IFB church. I started attending with them and I made an agreement with my daughter I would not discuss KJVO'ism or any other doctrine that isn't correct (which there are hundreds). I am going to leave the church soon and go back to the SBC churches, when I find one I like. The SBC churches in this regiono are fairly conservative, but they don't say you are going to hell if you have a set of "drums" on your stage. Although the piano and organ are okay.:BangHead:

 

[seekingthetruth]

The issue is when the KJVO followers say that anyone who uses a modern Bible version is using a perversion and going to hell because you cannot be saved with these bibles from hell. THAT is heresy.

That I do agree with. however in my many years of IFB experience I have never heard the bit about can't be saved by MVs. And yes, if anbody said that i would agree that it is heresy.

But, it is heresy because it is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that saves us, not the Bible version we get it from.

I really don't believe there is a sin called "blasphemy of the Modern Bible Version".

When these people condemn a modern version they are just condemning a book, it is not the same as condemning God Himself.

Frankly, I think that because of the number of modern translations out today, that money must be the motivating factor in the writing of at least some of them. Why would God want to sanction so many different versions and cause so much confusion? I don't think He has, but that is just my opinion.

Some people are just greedy.

John

 

[annsni]

That I do agree with. however in my many years of IFB experience I have never heard the bit about can't be saved by MVs. And yes, if anbody said that i would agree that it is heresy.

But, it is heresy because it is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that saves us, not the Bible version we get it from.

I really don't believe there is a sin called "blasphemy of the Modern Bible Version".

When these people condemn a modern version they are just condemning a book, it is not the same as condemning God Himself.

Frankly, I think that because of the number of modern translations out today, that money must be the motivating factor in the writing of at least some of them. Why would God want to sanction so many different versions and cause so much confusion? I don't think He has, but that is just my opinion.

Some people are just greedy.

John

And some people just want to get the Word of God to the people in their language.

But there ARE some out there who say that you cannot be saved by a modern version:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/why_fight.htm

 

[JesusFan]

And some people just want to get the Word of God to the people in their language.

But there ARE some out there who say that you cannot be saved by a modern version:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/why_fight.htm

Isn't it true that all of those holding to KJVO hold to essentially that all other versions are in error/satanic in origin, that KJV is ONLY word of God for today, and that KJV was preserved by God!

Those holding to KJVP would hold to that mainly due to feeling that greek text based upon, TR, superior to CT of modern versions!

 

[Sapper Woody]

I've attended two IFB colleges, both of which I would consider to be KJVO. (I myself am KJVP). I considered these two colleges to both be at the far spectrum of KJVO, as in they only allow preaching from KJV (and only other KJVO were allowed to preach there), KJV is the only bible allowed in the college, and I have heard teaching against using MVs. However, among these two colleges, even with their strong KJVO stance, I have never heard anyone ever say that you can't be saved using another bible. I have even seen hardcore KJVO proponents pick up an NIV and lead someone to Christ.

Any type of KJVO these people held was only taught to those already saved. Even new converts coming into the congregation of th church were not ridiculed or ostracized for bringing in MVs. Yes, they were 'educated' on why the church/college believed in KJVO. But they didn't hold to what everyone else is touting that KJVO hold to.

My church experience isn't as widespread as some on here. I've only listened to about 150 to 200 different pastors preach, I'd say. And out of those, not a single one that I recall has stated that you can't get saved out of a MV (even the ones who called any MV a 'perversion', etc), although almost 100% called themselves KJVO.

 

[dcorbett]

I don't get the animosity towards KJVO. If they want to use the KJV exclusively, then let them.

1. The KJV is the Word of God. It;s not like they are using the Book of Mormon or something.

2. They are leading people to Christ. They are carrying out the Great Commission.

3. I don't know of a single verse that states that KJVO is a false doctrine. In fact, for 300 years it wasnt an issue, everybody in the English speaking world used it. So what makes it evil now?

4. Calling brothers and sisters in Christ heretics just because you don't agree with their choice of text seems quite sinful to me.

Leave those people alone. If God wants them to use a different Bible version then He will lead them to it.

John

Thank, you, John, from a KJVO person. I don't care what version of the Bible YOU use, but as for me and my house, we will use the King James.
It is the only version of the Bible that was ever in my Southern Baptist home when I was growing up, and I don't NEED another version, King James is all I care to read.

 

[dcorbett]

Isn't it true that all of those holding to KJVO hold to essentially that all other versions are in error/satanic in origin, that KJV is ONLY word of God for today, and that KJV was preserved by God!

No, it is not true. I go to an IFB church that is KJVO, but nobody there says the all the others are satanic in origin. We do believe that satan has a foot in the door on quite a few versions FOR SURE. When key words are left out, and meanings are changed, then satan is in the door. The Word of God cannot and should not be altered or changed to suit just anybody's whim.

My daughter-in-law was saved out of an NIV, by the way.

 

[Phillip]

I've attended two IFB colleges, both of which I would consider to be KJVO. (I myself am KJVP). I considered these two colleges to both be at the far spectrum of KJVO, as in they only allow preaching from KJV (and only other KJVO were allowed to preach there), KJV is the only bible allowed in the college, and I have heard teaching against using MVs. However, among these two colleges, even with their strong KJVO stance, I have never heard anyone ever say that you can't be saved using another bible. I have even seen hardcore KJVO proponents pick up an NIV and lead someone to Christ.

Any type of KJVO these people held was only taught to those already saved. Even new converts coming into the congregation of th church were not ridiculed or ostracized for bringing in MVs. Yes, they were 'educated' on why the church/college believed in KJVO. But they didn't hold to what everyone else is touting that KJVO hold to.

My church experience isn't as widespread as some on here. I've only listened to about 150 to 200 different pastors preach, I'd say. And out of those, not a single one that I recall has stated that you can't get saved out of a MV (even the ones who called any MV a 'perversion', etc), although almost 100% called themselves KJVO.

I have probably heard as many pastors and I can show you one right now that believes that and repeats the KJVB is the only Word of God because the MV's are all from Satan. He is represented by a LOT of other pastors, all IFB's who came from the same college and I'm not going into that.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have probably heard as many pastors and I can show you one right now that believes that and repeats the KJVB is the only Word of God because the MV's are all from Satan. He is represented by a LOT of other pastors, all IFB's who came from the same college and I'm not going into that.

I know of a college in OK that is KJVO. As a matter of fact, this is what they believe and adhere to as a distinctive. It is the very first and top distinctive in their list of distinctives.

I've called them to confirm this position just now. Do they preach that if you use another version you are going to hell, cannot be saved &c...not necessarily, but I do know some who would more likely than not go that far. They are however a KJVO school.

I just now got off the phone from a return call from said college. The gentleman (who was one of my professors from the College I attended btw) spoke of several KJVO churches in my town that he knows of. This is what their College developes, KJVO pastors. Are they Ruckmanites? No, but they do in fact preach KJVO as a distinctive.

It looks to me there are many KJVO churches out there. I'd dare say some of these more than likely go to some extreme with the issue.

 

[matt wade]

I know of a college in OK that is KJVO. As a matter of fact, this is what they believe and adhere to as a distinctive. It is the very first and top distinctive in their list of distinctives.

I've called them to confirm this position just now. Do they preach that if you use another version you are going to hell, cannot be saved &c...not necessarily, but I do know some who would more likely than not go that far. They are however a KJVO school.

I just now got off the phone from a return call from said college. The gentleman (who was one of my professors from the College I attended btw) spoke of several KJVO churches in my town that he knows of. This is what their College developes, KJVO pastors. Are they Ruckmanites? No, but they do in fact preach KJVO as a distinctive.

It looks to me there are many KJVO churches out there. I'd dare say some of these more than likely go to some extreme with the issue.

What's the college? Let us look and decide for ourselves if they do these things.

 

[JesusFan]

No, it is not true. I go to an IFB church that is KJVO, but nobody there says the all the others are satanic in origin. We do believe that satan has a foot in the door on quite a few versions FOR SURE. When key words are left out, and meanings are changed, then satan is in the door. The Word of God cannot and should not be altered or changed to suit just anybody's whim.

My daughter-in-law was saved out of an NIV, by the way.

IF you hold that the KJV is ONLY version in English for the church to use, that ALL other modern versions NOT based off the TR are satanic in origin/influence, that the KJV only was supernaturally preserved by God for us...

That woukld meet the criteria to be "heretical KJVO"

IF you believe that the KJV is the best version for today, that the TR greek text is the best,and that it is the one to use...

KJVP, not heretical!