Is it wrong to indulge the flesh in music?

[Eric B]

Because this time you don't get to rest on this assumption. You need to provide some supporting evidence.

Plenty of evidence has been provided before [for the fact that "the godly old society of the past is the standard here. But then for the millionth time, their style was once new and just as offensive to earlier, plainer traditions".]
But here is some again:
Miller, Contemporary Christian Debate, p.28 mentions a lot of this, with quotes from among other things,
Allen & Borror, Worship, Rediscovering the
Missing Jewel, and Bainton Here I stand: A Life of Martin Luther. There were more, but I have to find them. Then, the same thing happened in the transition from monophnic singing (chants) to plyphonic. Plus, the biggest proof is the very thing you keep bringing up: That instruments were at one point shunned. Whenever they were intorduced; you had the same claim that it was sensual and would destroy worship.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Yes, we are to worship in the spirit and with our understanding, again making a distinction between the two, but rather than "agree" with what is being said, we are to judge the things that are being said.

Mere semantics. If I agree with something, then I have judged it to be appropriate.

Also, the we must do those things that are profitable to the understanding of OTHERS. So, you see, worship is not a private matter.

We worship corporately, and I am blessed when I see others worsthip.

The words that I sing...

Stop. We aren't talking about the words. We're talking about the demeanor.

The words are still appropriate.

I am reminded of the scene in Nehemiah, where all the people worshipped and lifted their hands to God (8:6).

This is a good example. Is this really what is happening though? Do all they in your church lift their hands at the same time, or is it a few individuals here and there?

Does it matter?

There's nothing in that passage remotely describing what you are using it to justify.

The passage shows that public raising of hands in worhship is acceptable to God. Your problem is with the text.

Anything, if done in an act of worship AND if it is found clearly in the Scriptures, is part of worship.

Is this the sentiment of Christ and the Apostles?

Absolutely.

You were the first to bring up John 4, and in there we see a change in the manner of worship under the New Testament, and it isn't simply that blood sacrifices aren't being offered anymore, but give that a few years. Folks will be biting the heads off of bats and doves at Christian Rock concerts and calling it worship.

Biting off the heads of bats is not found in the Scriptures - and your arguing a slippery slope fallacy. Secondly, blood sacrifices are clearly spoken of in the book of Hebrews, so that is covered right there.

What of the Burning of incense?

Who cares?

Priestly garb? What of meal and drink offerings? I find those in the Scriptures. Are those legitimate forms of worship as long as my heart is in the right place?

The Scriptures as a whole have illustrated that the offering system of the Old Covenant is no longer in place - because of the amazing sacrifice of Christ, this is no longer an issue. Meal and drink offerings are not to be offered, according to several places in the NT. If this is the best you've got, then it's clear you have very little Scriptural support on your side.

 

[superdave]

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

1 Peter 4:3-4 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

So now we get to the heart of the issue. You do not "feel" spirtual when singing certain types of music, so you assume its ungodly, and mean to use scriptures that could be about anything to demean those who disagree with you. By saying that we would understand what good Godly music was if only we were as spiritually discerning as you.

Sounds like a Gnostic heresy to me. We have a couple folks who support thier radical KJVO positions with the same charismatic dogma.

I like to keep my principles and standards scritprurally based thank you very much, you have answered my question fully. Your position is loosely based on some scriptures that say those who are not spiritual will not understand or appreciate the things that are of God.

I have plenty of friends and co-workers who dislike, or are disinterested in, CCM, hence, by your own proof texts, I can assume that those things are clearly of God since the natural man is offended by them. Thanks.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

We *may* need to start a thread defining:

Indulge

Enjoy

and Beat My Body Into Subjection...

Because, obviously, there are some who feel that any enjoyment of anything, especially Music, is sin...

But, then, I would have to ask what is the Abundant Life, why should we desire it if there is no enjoyment involved?

Now, 'indulge' does normally intimate a catering to the fleshly side...

But, then if we use that definition we can't indulge our hunger legitimately either?

Enjoy, now, is another misunderstood word...

If in His Presence is Pleasure/Joy forevermore then I submit that *some* enjoyment is proper even in Worship...

Especially *if* we are the Israel of God and He inhabits the Praises of Israel...

Obviously there is a time to beat one's body into subjection especially if we are having 'eye' problems with Sisters not dressed in a way the is easy for us to stop at an acknowledgment of beauty...

In fact as I have studied Scripture and discovered that man is Spirit, Soul and Body and have further see legitimate subdivisions including the Soul having Mind, Will and Emotions...

I further submit that without emotionally content it is not possible to Worship God Fully...

And, a proper attitude is required to do so which is unattainable without some enjoyment...

Notwithstanding, being a Pentecostal/Charsimatic I am all too familiar with the tendency for some to put their 'Wills' out of gear and allow a short circuit between their 'Emotions' and 'Minds'...

God didn't call us to either mindless emotionalism or emotionless sophistry. There has to be balance...

Indulge was probably a 'baited' title...

And, we all enjoyed taking the bait...

Sadly, there are those that can not Worship where anyone else is enjoying themselves... But, then, there *are* churches *just* for them.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
There were more, but I have to find them. Then, the same thing happened in the transition from monophnic singing (chants) to plyphonic. Plus, the biggest proof is the very thing you keep bringing up: That instruments were at one point shunned. Whenever they were intorduced; you had the same claim that it was sensual and would destroy worship.

The concerns before now were centered on the simplicity of the Christian worship. There was never any real question over musical style.

It is a different argument altogether.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Does it matter?

Yes.

Who cares?

God.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by superdave:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

1 Peter 4:3-4 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

So now we get to the heart of the issue. You do not "feel" spirtual when singing certain types of music, so you assume its ungodly, and mean to use scriptures that could be about anything to demean those who disagree with you. By saying that we would understand what good Godly music was if only we were as spiritually discerning as you.</font>[/QUOTE]What do the verses I quoted which merely established the fact that those who are carnal think that spiritual things are dead have anything to do with my feelings?

You're the one pandering to feelings. You use the feelings of those who are unsaved and judge the righteousness of your worship by whether or not it's something that they would want.

But let's get back to the issue. Do you now see by the verses cited that carnal and spiritual people will have different feelings about spiritual things?

 

[ScottEmerson]

That's your whole response, Aaron? You don't have much of an argument, then.