Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[DHK]

Before I was saved I denied the right of Jesus to reign in my life. When I was saved I recognized it and yielded my heart to it. Since then I have broken plenty of his laws, but that he is Lord and ruler of me, there is no doubt.

That is the situation with most of us. But that is not what advocates of Lordship salvation teach. They take scripture like Luke 14:33 quite literally,

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)

If you do not forsake all that you have,
If you do not sell all that you have,
If you do not give all to the poor,
If you do not take up your cross,
If you do not deny yourself of all,
If you do not all of the above, and more, then you cannot be saved.

That is a works based salvation. It is also legalism. Legalism is adding to the grace of God that brings salvation. It was dealt with in Acts 15 when the Judaizers (legalists) wanted to add the keeping of the law and circumcision to the simple gospel message of grace by faith. McArthur and others are adding the above stated works to that same simple message, so that it is no more by grace but of works.
Receive not the grace of God in vain.

 

[freeatlast]

That is the situation with most of us. But that is not what advocates of Lordship salvation teach. They take scripture like Luke 14:33 quite literally,

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)

If you do not forsake all that you have,
If you do not sell all that you have,
If you do not give all to the poor,
If you do not take up your cross,
If you do not deny yourself of all,
If you do not all of the above, and more, then you cannot be saved.

That is a works based salvation. It is also legalism. Legalism is adding to the grace of God that brings salvation. It was dealt with in Acts 15 when the Judaizers (legalists) wanted to add the keeping of the law and circumcision to the simple gospel message of grace by faith. McArthur and others are adding the above stated works to that same simple message, so that it is no more by grace but of works.
Receive not the grace of God in vain.

It is only legalism and works salvation if the person is doing it literally so GET saved. If they are coming with the spirit of surrender to the Lord, they do not even have to know all that he commands, then it is simply repentance as scripture requires for salvation. If a person after claimed salvation reject the commands of God then they are not saved.
Whosoever is born of God doth not (continue to practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (continue to practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

[DHK]

Your wasting your time. This guy never admits when he has done wrong. On several occasions he has posted outright lies about what I say. Even when confronted he still denies the lie. And in the case of contextual evidence it does not matter what scripture says or teaches. He has made up his mind and no amount of biblical truth will change it. Scripture speaks of this;
For this they willingly are ignorant of;
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Posts like these are out of order and will not be tolerated by the board.

If you are unaware of the rules I suggest you read them. They are at the bottom of every page:

3. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

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You agreed to keep these rules when you registered here.
Further personal attacks will be edited/deleted.

 

[DHK]

It is only legalism and works salvation if the person is doing it literally so GET saved. If they are coming with the spirit of surrender to the Lord, they do not even have to know all that he commands, then it is simply repentance as scripture requires for salvation.

That is the absurdity of LS. The person coming to Christ (usually) doesn't know all that Christ commands. However, the Bible does teach the concept: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." So that is simply human rationalization for doctrinal error.

If a person after claimed salvation reject the commands of God then they are not saved.

Then you are claiming that a person must be sinless after salvation. Are you sinless?

Whosoever is born of God doth not (continue to practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (continue to practice) sin, because he is born of God.

What do you think this verse means? There are many that greatly misunderstand this verse and misapply it.

 

[freeatlast]

Posts like these are out of order and will not be tolerated by the board.

If you are unaware of the rules I suggest you read them. They are at the bottom of every page:


You agreed to keep these rules when you registered here.
Further personal attacks will be edited/deleted.

I certainly respect your position to carry out any duties that you feel violate the rules against me or anyone. However I do not respect you because you do not carry out the rules in a manner that is honoring to the Lord. In fact you do it very hypocritically.The rules say this;
Personal attacks will not be tolerated yet do continue to allow such against me. You pick and choose who you will sensor. My statements to webdog are true. His about me is not. So again I do not respect you at all, but I do your position so do what you must even if it is one sided because I am not going to be bullied by the likes of you or anyone else.

 

[zrs6v4]

Did the thief on the cross understand Jesus to be the Son of God...or the Messiah? We know the thief knew Jesus was innocent, but based on what he asked Jesus it would seem he understood Jesus to be the understood Messiah (remember me when you come into your kingdom).

Also, did the OT saints understand Jesus to be the Son of God...or the Messiah?

Webdog, great addition to the discussion, and it is important..

It seems that the Old Testament does make it clear that Jesus is God, take Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:36-37 for example.

With that said, even though the Old Testament made it clear Jesus is God, or even the Son of God, we must realize that many times the disciples didn't understand the Scriptures until Jesus taught them or after His resurrection (John 2, or Luke 24).

We might then ask, when were the disciples credited the righteousness of Christ?

I do think that while the big focus is Jesus as the Christ, and many knew that the Messiah was to come. I can't say for sure based on my knowledge that they linked the Christ to being God in flesh, but it very well might have been an obvious statement in Jewish teaching of the Christ. If that is the case, this is why many people who met Jesus confessed Him as the Son of Man, the Christ, or the Son of God without any in depth teaching from Jesus on those names.

What are your thoughts?

 

[zrs6v4]

From pages 6 to present have started to get on the same page as my thinking, When I have time later I will compile all of the good posts and statements to keep the discussion on topic. Thanks

 

[webdog]

Your wasting your time. This guy never admits when he has done wrong. On several occasions he has posted outright lies about what I say. Even when confronted he still denies the lie. And in the case of contextual evidence it does not matter what scripture says or teaches. He has made up his mind and no amount of biblical truth will change it. Scripture speaks of this;
For this they willingly are ignorant of;
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

This coming from the person who attacks moderators and myself on the BB. Go back to your glass house.

 

[webdog]

I certainly respect your position to carry out any duties that you feel violate the rules against me or anyone. However I do not respect you because you do not carry out the rules in a manner that is honoring to the Lord. In fact you do it very hypocritically.The rules say this;
Personal attacks will not be tolerated yet do continue to allow such against me. You pick and choose who you will sensor. My statements to webdog are true. His about me is not. So again I do not respect you at all, but I do your position so do what you must even if it is one sided because I am not going to be bullied by the likes of you or anyone else.

Spoken like a true liberal...I can violate the rules if another does too. I'll just blame my bad behavior on the alleged bad behavior of others. Who cares who you respect, your behavior doesn't earn respect.

 

[Luke2427]

That is the absurdity of LS. The person coming to Christ (usually) doesn't know all that Christ commands. However, the Bible does teach the concept: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." So that is simply human rationalization for doctrinal error.

What's absurd is the denial that the Bible teaches it when it is so abundantly clear.

Lordship does not mean you keep the commandments all the time.

It means you recognize and yield to the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord. The Word of God teaches this absolutely, unequivocally, irrefutably, undeniably clearly.

Then you are claiming that a person must be sinless after salvation. Are you sinless?

No, no, no. do not call absurd what you do not understand.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

Yes.

See, the question solved in a word. :jesus:

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes. I agree with that ReformedBaptist.

 

[psalms109:31]

Amen

Yes.

See, the question solved in a word. :jesus:

I can say amen to that. Right now I don't know who said what and who disagrees with who?

 

[Amy.G]

Ah! that makes it clearer - thanks! But looking again at Amy G.'s post, it seems to me she was talking about the fact that Jesus Christ is God and Man, not about us being gods. I am sure she will correct me if I am wrong on that.

You are correct. :thumbs:

 

[Jim1999]

We can talk all we want, but it boils down to one thing; a saving work of grace in the person, showing itself in the person.

Some people have expressed the "magic" words, but show no evidence of that work of grace. Some know very little, except they believe the gospel, and show that evidence of grace in their changed lives.

The devil believes and trembles....yet he is not saved. Here we have knowledge, but it is not efficacious. Grace goes beyond knowledge, and brings with it an absolute change. The change may be gradual, but it is there. We don't like to alk about emotion, but there is a definite emotion that accompanies that act of grace, and it is overwhelming, even if it may not include tears, jumping up and down and all those physical demonstrations.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[annsni]

We can talk all we want, but it boils down to one thing; a saving work of grace in the person, showing itself in the person.

Some people have expressed the "magic" words, but show no evidence of that work of grace. Some know very little, except they believe the gospel, and show that evidence of grace in their changed lives.

The devil believes and trembles....yet he is not saved. Here we have knowledge, but it is not efficacious. Grace goes beyond knowledge, and brings with it an absolute change. The change may be gradual, but it is there. We don't like to alk about emotion, but there is a definite emotion that accompanies that act of grace, and it is overwhelming, even if it may not include tears, jumping up and down and all those physical demonstrations.

Cheers,

Jim

Amen Jim. :thumbs:

 

[zrs6v4]

We can talk all we want, but it boils down to one thing; a saving work of grace in the person, showing itself in the person.

Some people have expressed the "magic" words, but show no evidence of that work of grace. Some know very little, except they believe the gospel, and show that evidence of grace in their changed lives.

The devil believes and trembles....yet he is not saved. Here we have knowledge, but it is not efficacious. Grace goes beyond knowledge, and brings with it an absolute change. The change may be gradual, but it is there. We don't like to alk about emotion, but there is a definite emotion that accompanies that act of grace, and it is overwhelming, even if it may not include tears, jumping up and down and all those physical demonstrations.

Cheers,

Jim

I wholeheartedly agree Jim. The question is: Would God save someone apart from the knowledge of the Gospel? The answer is no, He chooses to work through the Gospel of Jesus (1Peter 1:23, Romans 10). So Does God save apart from bringing a person the heart knowledge of who the Son of God is?

 

[zrs6v4]

From pages 6 to present have started to get on the same page as my thinking, When I have time later I will compile all of the good posts and statements to keep the discussion on topic. Thanks

I found 2 things I wanted to bring back up:

1. What else do sinners have to know about Jesus to be saved? How comprehensive is the list?

When talking about what is the minimum that is needed to having "saving knowledge" Is it that we must learn that Jesus is the Savior, Lord, Messiah, Christ, God? What about sin within ourselves? What about repentance? What about God as Creator? If I go to Haiti and tell a person that Jesus is Savior, and thats it, is that enough to have saving knowledge? What aspects of the Word of God does God bring to a person before He saves the person? We all agree that it is the Gospel, but how do we define Gospel or enough? In the Gospel of John it shows me many aspects of Jesus in chapter 1 alone. It is essential to know Jesus saving work and what it was for, on this we agree.

But what information about Christ must enter our hearts before we can actually trust Him? Is He faithful? Does He lie? What does He want us to do? How can this salvation be imparted to me? Who is He? Why do I need to be saved? What is belief? Who is God? etc... I believe there are many factors.

So the person can be told that Jesus is Lord,the Son of God who died in their place for their sins, they need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus and if they accept that they are saved. No prayer, no works, no baptism, no deep biblical knowledge, No Trinitarian knowledge needed. That will come later.

Do we need to hear words or is it the understanding that benefits? If I hear the name Jesus and do not understand what it means, what good is that? When I hear Son of God, and yet don't know what it means, what good is that?

I agree that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. Yet at the very same time if we produce no fruit/works then we say we are saved and belief apart from change.

I agree with you on much of what you said including no need for works or deep knowledge. I argue is your view on not needing to know much about Christ to trust Him a modern view? Do you say that because it is the norm, or do you believe that because that is what the Bible teaches? Why does John say that he wrote so we will believe Jesus is the Son of God? Did He write all of that just so we can hear the words "Son of God" and not understand them and then believe?

I find that much modern/false evangelism is a process, and many times it does not even include repentance and faith. I also see that people are in a hurry to get people saved, which I have that desire as well, but in that motive we skip important truth. It isn't that we need to load them with a certain amount of truth, but what about Jesus? Why would we just leave it at "He is Savior" (not to take away from the beauty of the Savior). I find that in our culture we need to give a clear message about the Person of Christ. It isn't that we try to do God's work in the process of teaching people, because we still fully rely in Him for the saving work. Our desire must be to glorify the Christ, and make sure that those who reside in America know who the Son of God is and what His name means.

When we are speaking to each other we speak in English, and if someone started speaking in Spanish I wouldn't understand. The Biblical language is a different language, and we must explain it so people can understand. Peopl eneed to be born again to understand spiritual language, but when we evangelize I believe we must inform then, genuinely, regarding who Jesus is. It is reality!

 

[DHK]

What's absurd is the denial that the Bible teaches it when it is so abundantly clear.

The Bible does not teach LS. I have yet to meet a person on the board to demonstrate by their testimony, that they believe in Lordship Salvation. Share with me your salvation testimony and I will share with you that you do not believe in it.

Lordship does not mean you keep the commandments all the time.

Perhaps not. But it does mean that at the time of your salvation you supposedly make Christ total Lord of your life by demonstrating that you forsake all that you have, give to the poor, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Christ. I have yet to meet anyone who believes in this false teaching to have put it into practice themselves at the time of their salvation, making them hypocritical false teachers.
In other words, on the day you were saved did you leave your home, family, possessions, and all that you had, become a missionary, go to a foreign nation, and were somehow automatically qualified to preach the gospel (carry out the Great Commission), as Christ commanded. Did you put into practice Lordship Salvation, as you say you advocate? I doubt it.

It means you recognize and yield to the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord. The Word of God teaches this absolutely, unequivocally, irrefutably, undeniably clearly.

I can and do recognize that Christ is the Lord of my life without believing in this false teaching.

No, no, no. do not call absurd what you do not understand.

I will and do call absurd this false teaching of Lordship Salvation.

Here are some sites for you to check out:

http://www.dividedbytruth.org/BTP/ls...apotg_main.htm

http://www.lovethetruth.com/false_doctrine/lordship.htm

http://www.soulwinning.info/fd/lords...n/spurgeon.htm

http://www.godlovespeople.com/decept...xic_waters.htm

Either salvation is by grace through faith, or it is by works.
Which one?

 

[Winman]

The devil believes and trembles....yet he is not saved.

This is because Jesus did not die for Satan and the other angels who rebelled against God. There is nothing to believe for them.

And this is one of the problems with Calvinism, it teaches that Jesus only died for some men. Now, how in the world can any man know if he was one of the fortunate elect who Jesus died for?

You can't.

To be a Calvinist is to live in fear, not knowing until you die if you are saved. You cannot be 100% sure, because there is always the chance a person is fooling themselves, convincing themselves they are saved when they are not.

The non-Cal position is quite different. We believe (because the scriptures repeatedly say so) that Jesus died for all men, no person is excluded. We believe if we come to Jesus in our heart for forgiveness as Jesus commanded that we will be forgiven and not cast out (John 6:37). We know if we call on Jesus to forgive our sins and save us we will be saved (Rom 10:13).

The non-Cal is not doing anything unscriptural to be saved. When Jesus said "come unto me", I came. When Jesus knocked on the door, I opened my heart and invited him in. I can know I am saved because I called on Jesus as he said to do, and I know for a certainty he will not cast me out.

A Calvinist cannot know this, they cannot be absolutely certain that they are the elect. They cannot know if they are called, perhaps they are only deceiving themselves, convincing themselves they are elect when they are not. A non-Cal can be sure, because they know that Jesus is absolutely calling them and all other men as well.