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Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?
- Thread starter zrs6v4
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Of course, the excuse all Calvinist's run to, that nobody but them can understand Calvinism. I have been debating Calvinists for over a year on this forum, I am very familiar with what they believe. I know that not all Calvinists agree on every degree of doctrine.
Look, if only a person elected by God can be saved, then to know for a certainty you are saved you must know you are elect. There is no possible way to know this. The scriptures clearly show that many people believe themselves saved when they are not.
Tell me, how do you know 100% for sure that you are elect?
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Not so! "How can I be saved?" asked the gaoler at Philippi. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved," answered the apostles. Anyone who does that, whether they end up espousing the "Doctrines of Grace" or not, will be saved. And are you suggesting that there are no "non-Cals" (to use your term) who convince themselves that they are saved when they are not?
Cals believe those things too, except for the "no person excluded" bit. Certainly, no one who comes to hrist in repentance and faith will be told, "Sorry, I can't save you. You aren't among the elect!" Jesus said further on in John 6, in verse 44 and verse 65:
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father bwho sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
65 "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by my Father."
And Cals certainly believe the truth of Romans 10.13.65 "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by my Father."
The Cal would say that it is the Lord Who opens hearts, as was the case with Lydia. But they, too, would say that they are saved because they called on Jesus as He commanded, and they know for a certainty that He will not cast them out.
I believe the post below yours answers the question, but I'll put it in my own words.
If God draws you to him, you CAN be saved. If you are not drawn by God, you will not want to. You'll not even ask for forgiveness and salvation.
Man does not know who God elects and is instructed to proclaim the Gospel to the world. Those who are the elect of God may answer. Those who are not will not.
psalms109:31
Active Member
I agree
I agree with the scripture you gave, but now these are the times we are in.
Jhn 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Jhn 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jhn 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Jhn 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Romans 10:
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
I agree with the scripture you gave, but now these are the times we are in.
Jhn 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Jhn 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jhn 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Jhn 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Romans 10:
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
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preacher4truth
Active Member
I also believe this about God drawing, and the believer knowing, and thus can know whether God had elected such. No one can be saved without this work of God. Many people who have been lead to trust in "faith in faith" have come to realize they were never truly saved, but simply, they were led in a sinners prayer. I have seen many people like this come to this realization, then feel the working of God upon their hearts and become genuinely converted. The joy and freedom you see come into their lives is great.
People buck against the Sovereignty of God, do so against election also, and if a believer even mentions election, generally is cast out as a calvinist. I'm a Christian. I believe in the what we call "tulip theory."
As a side note, people love to label others, (calvinist, liberal, or whatever) so they can feel superior, or whatever other kick they get out of it. This site is no different, personally scrolling through the topics, I see over and over where a believer makes a post, then along come the trolls to fight about whatever little loophole they can find. I wonder if these same "believers" treat others as they do people on here and real life? It's unbelievable folks. There are several who do this as a way of life. Maybe time to grow up?
Anyhow...
This is one issue, (calvinism, election, to be more precise) while in college, was not talked about much, in class or otherwise. As I began to enquire of it myself and look into this, through paying attention to it in the Bible, in passages generally glossed over, where it talks often of this, and also in reading puritan works, some of Calvins writings, I have to concur with the Bible and with them that it is a doctrine I agree with and that it needs to be preached and taught.
After hearing years of "1611 this and that," "women and pants," "men and shorts," "women and short hair," "Gail Riplinger Big Sunday," "no no to the movies sunday" shallow, ill-prepared platform text rants and rage...and much much more! it is refreshing to preach and study real Bible doctrines. There is way more to God and His Word and His attributes than some of those who hang onto these issues ever touch upon.
To be cabable of explaining all of this perfectly to the satisfaction of myself and all others this side of heaven will never happen. I will tell you this though, God told Moses He will show mercy to whom He wills and grace to whom He wills. My God is big enough to know what He is Sovereignly doing in all of this, even if I don't get it all, and even if I just don't like it that much.
:tonofbricks:
:thumbs:
People buck against the Sovereignty of God, do so against election also, and if a believer even mentions election, generally is cast out as a calvinist. I'm a Christian. I believe in the what we call "tulip theory."
As a side note, people love to label others, (calvinist, liberal, or whatever) so they can feel superior, or whatever other kick they get out of it. This site is no different, personally scrolling through the topics, I see over and over where a believer makes a post, then along come the trolls to fight about whatever little loophole they can find. I wonder if these same "believers" treat others as they do people on here and real life? It's unbelievable folks. There are several who do this as a way of life. Maybe time to grow up?
Anyhow...
This is one issue, (calvinism, election, to be more precise) while in college, was not talked about much, in class or otherwise. As I began to enquire of it myself and look into this, through paying attention to it in the Bible, in passages generally glossed over, where it talks often of this, and also in reading puritan works, some of Calvins writings, I have to concur with the Bible and with them that it is a doctrine I agree with and that it needs to be preached and taught.
After hearing years of "1611 this and that," "women and pants," "men and shorts," "women and short hair," "Gail Riplinger Big Sunday," "no no to the movies sunday" shallow, ill-prepared platform text rants and rage...and much much more! it is refreshing to preach and study real Bible doctrines. There is way more to God and His Word and His attributes than some of those who hang onto these issues ever touch upon.
To be cabable of explaining all of this perfectly to the satisfaction of myself and all others this side of heaven will never happen. I will tell you this though, God told Moses He will show mercy to whom He wills and grace to whom He wills. My God is big enough to know what He is Sovereignly doing in all of this, even if I don't get it all, and even if I just don't like it that much.
:tonofbricks:
:thumbs:
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Scripture disagrees with you.
Scripture disagrees with this view - and every Calvinist believer would say the same thing. I'm saved by Christ's blood because of His calling and mercy on my life. I am 100% sure I'm saved with no question whatsoever.
Yet since it is man's job to be saved, he can easily lose that salvation as well. Kind of stepping on and off the bus.
Yet what about when you do something wrong? God can't make you do anything - He doesn't have sovereignty over your will so you can choose to be saved one day and choose to not be saved the next.
You do not understand the doctrine of grace, apparently.
I looked for your word..... it is a bit elusive.
26 And he has made of one blood all the nations of men living on all the face of the earth, ordering their times and the limits of their lands, 27 So that they might make search for God, in order, if possible, to get knowledge of him and make discovery of him, though he is not far from every one of us:
Acts 17:26-27 (BBE)
and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
Acts 17:26-27 (ASV)
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us
Acts 17:26-27 (KJV)
Could you explain this with scripture? I am either reading it wrong or the scripture in whole does not support you an several counts.
Sure:
1 John 5 tells us that we CAN know that we have eternal life:
"11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."
2 Corinthians 3 tells us:
4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Every believer can have confidence that he or she is a child of God and has eternal life.
Calvinist's don't do anything, doing anything at all for salvation is blasphemy to them.
Was the Philipian jailer regenerate when Paul told him to believe? No, because Paul said he would be "saved" if he believed.
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
There is a HUGE problem here for the Calvinist, Calvinists believe a person must be regenerated before they will even express an interest in salvation.
But he was clearly not saved when he asked this question, because Paul told him he must believe on Jesus to be saved.
That introduces a big question, saved from what? Death? If he is regenerate, he is already alive. Saved from his sins? What? Can you be regenerate and still dead in all your trespasses and sins?
So, it is obvious the Philian jailer was not regenerate when he asked how to be saved.
But Calvinists insist the unregenerate cannot believe.
I've never seen a Calvinist say they called on Jesus to save them, although I am sure some have. I have seen them say things like "I realized I was saved".
Well, you don't realize you are saved, you realize you are lost like the Philipian jailer did. Once you realize you are lost you will go to Jesus in your heart and cast your soul upon him for salvation. That is what it means to believe on Jesus, it means to place your life completely in his hands and depend upon him to save you, just like the blind and lame came to Jesus and depended upon him to heal them.
If you do not come to Jesus, you will not be saved.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
If you have to come to Jesus to have life, then you must come when you are unregenerate. This alone refutes Calvinism. But Jesus also said clearly you must do something to be saved, you must come to him.
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When winman's involved...yep.
You see according to calvinism, unsaved people's shows stink because they are dead....:BangHead:
Well, the OP does concern Calvinism. On another thread some are saying a person can be regenerated, that is, be born again and have spiritual life (for years in some cases) before they believe on Jesus.
If God regenerates you and makes you spiritually alive, what need is there to believe on Jesus? You already have life.
Charles Spurgeon understood this false teaching and spoke out against it in Warrant of Faith
Spurgeon is asking the same exact question I am asking. If God regenerates a person, why do they need to have faith or believe on Jesus? They are already saved, they already have everlasting life.
Whether you will accept it or not, Calvinism teaches that you can have eternal life without believeing on Christ. Spurgeon understood this perfectly and showed it error.
So, you laugh and make fun all you want. You are teaching this very error that Spurgeon spoke against.
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Could you post the other posts where people are saying you can be saved for years before belief?
Spurgeon believed regeneration preceded faith too. This quote is taken out of context. We had a conversation about this very quote about three weeks ago and some dear brother proved that it was taken out of context and that Spurgeon did indeed believe that regeneration preceded faith.
You are not going to get it because you don't understand that terms have meanings.
That's not exactly what they are saying. Luke insists regeneration means life, but doesn't mean salvation. As you can see, Spurgeon considered regeneration to being "saved".
On another thread I posted this statement by V. A. Voorhis, an assistant to R. C. Sproul who said infants can be regererated for a period of time before expressing faith in Christ.
So, as you see, some Calvinists teach that a person can be regenerated for years before they believe on Jesus.
The problem with this is, until you believe on Jesus you are dead in your sins.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Jesus said if you don't believe on him you will die in your sins. So, it is impossible to be regenerated before you believe.
The scriptures clearly show faith precedes regeneration.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Luke and some of you other Calvinists might have a different definition of the word regeneration from us non-Cals, but one thing for certain, your definition cannot mean life, because you must first believe to have life.
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Here is your proof for what it is worth. BTW, Regeneration can be used as a synonym but it is not in and of itself a synonym. There is a big difference. I hope you can discern it.
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