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Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

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Jerome

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Wise words from the 1689 London Baptist Assembly:
none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. 3:25, 5:1, 5:11, Gal. 3:26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them, Eph. 2:1-12.
 

Amy.G

New Member
I can safely say that the God who created us could make sure that we were saved before we died. No one would be regenerated and not saved by the time of death. God's good that way. ;)

Ann, how can you safely say that and have no scripture to back it up? People use the same "logic" when they say oh God would never send someone to hell, He's just good that way. It's just an opinion based on emotion.

No one can be saved and not saved at the same time. If you have been regenerated and possess eternal life then you are saved. Salvation is not in the future, it is now.

I have shown that regeneration and the new birth are the exact same thing. You are saying that a person can be born again and still need saving. That is unbiblical.
 

annsni

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Ann, how can you safely say that and have no scripture to back it up? People use the same "logic" when they say oh God would never send someone to hell, He's just good that way. It's just an opinion based on emotion.

No one can be saved and not saved at the same time. If you have been regenerated and possess eternal life then you are saved. Salvation is not in the future, it is now.

I have shown that regeneration and the new birth are the exact same thing. You are saying that a person can be born again and still need saving. That is unbiblical.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
 

Amy.G

New Member
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

The question is who are the ones given by the Father?


This scripture also does not address being born again and still in need of salvation.
 

annsni

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The question is who are the ones given by the Father?


This scripture also does not address being born again and still in need of salvation.

The ones given by the Father would be the elect, would they not? Anyone who would be saved?
 

webdog

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The ones given by the Father would be the elect, would they not? Anyone who would be saved?
Actually, go down a few verses more...

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

I don't see regeneration anywhere in there. I see God teaching, people hearing and not hardening themselves and then understanding.
 

annsni

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Actually, go down a few verses more...

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

I don't see regeneration anywhere in there. I see God teaching, people hearing and not hardening themselves and then understanding.

But then 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." So they need to be changed from the "natural person" in order to hear and understand God's Word.
 

webdog

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But then 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." So they need to be changed from the "natural person" in order to hear and understand God's Word.
Keep it in context. Paul was speaking to believers at Corinth who were living according to their "natural" ways and were divided over the leaders within using human logic and intelligence. In Christ the church should be united, but when using our "natural man" to discern spiritual matters we fail. That is the intent of that passage, not pre faith regeneration.
Also, that verse does not say one has to be born again to understand salvation but God's wisdom pertaining to how a believer should live and conduct themselves.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
What happens to the person if they die regenerated...but not saved? It's been stated on this very thread that it could be days months or years before this occurs. Where do they spend eternity, Luke?

Also, Amy asked for Scripture showing you can be regenerated and not saved. You have not provided as to date.

Also Amy has a good grasp on Calvinism. Like myself I believe she leaned that way at one point with all of the text book "proof texts" to support it. I think you just have an over inflated view of your understanding on this doctrine or blindly dismiss any counter argument in favor of what a prior calvinist has said on it.

No, neither one of you do and I venture to say that ANY Calvinist on this board and well nigh any one on earth would tell you as much.
Also, Amy asked for Scripture showing you can be regenerated and not saved. You have not provided as to date
I did give Amy Scripture- about a half dozen in a single post that say exaclty that- even from the mouth of the Savior.

I even posted a video from a linguistics scholar on I John 5:1.

If you think I have not posted Scripture on here- you simply are not reading the posts.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Keep it in context. Paul was speaking to believers at Corinth who were living according to their "natural" ways and were divided over the leaders within using human logic and intelligence. In Christ the church should be united, but when using our "natural man" to discern spiritual matters we fail. That is the intent of that passage, not pre faith regeneration.
Also, that verse does not say one has to be born again to understand salvation but God's wisdom pertaining to how a believer should live and conduct themselves.

That is certainly NOT the context of that passage at all.

The chapter begins- "And I brethren, when I came to you..."

Paul is defending his Apostleship here by reminding them how God used him to convert them.

He argues that it was not by words of man's wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and power.

He speaks of the princes of this world not knowing the wisdom of God for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Then he tells us who CAN have this wisdom and who cannot. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God- neither can he..."

That is not speaking of carnal Christians there AT ALL, Webdog- at ALL.

It is speaking of how God used Paul to bring people in Corinth to Christ.

Do not tell me I don't follow the clear reading of Scripture when you miss context that badly.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Wise words from the 1689 London Baptist Assembly:

yes, they are. There is NO salvation apart from faith- none.

There is also no salvation apart from regeneration.

And there is no faith apart from regeneration.

Here is a quote from a work of exposition on the London Confession of 1689:

Special grace is the grace that God selectively shows. This would apply primarily to the grace he gives in regenerating the elect and thereby causing faith to exist in the elect who then exercise that faith thereby being justified.
 

webdog

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That is certainly NOT the context of that passage at all.

The chapter begins- "And I brethren, when I came to you..."

Paul is defending his Apostleship here by reminding them how God used him to convert them.

He argues that it was not by words of man's wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and power.

He speaks of the princes of this world not knowing the wisdom of God for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Then he tells us who CAN have this wisdom and who cannot. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God- neither can he..."

That is not speaking of carnal Christians there AT ALL, Webdog- at ALL.

It is speaking of how God used Paul to bring people in Corinth to Christ.

Do not tell me I don't follow the clear reading of Scripture when you miss context that badly.
Kind of sad a pastor has such a poor grasp on hermeneutics. Do you have any clue on WHY Paul wrote these letters to the church at Corinth?

Continue to interpret Bible through your theology, Luke
 

webdog

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No, neither one of you do and I venture to say that ANY Calvinist on this board and well nigh any one on earth would tell you as much.
Opinions are like nostrils.
I did give Amy Scripture- about a half dozen in a single post that say exaclty that- even from the mouth of the Savior.
Strange, I saw nothing proving pre-faith regeneration...even from the mouth of Christ.
I even posted a video from a linguistics scholar on I John 5:1.
I missed that one...but you should run that one by the person you are debating on another thread (John of Japan), would do you a world of good. From an earlier discussionon 1 John 5:1 "the present participle in both cases does not deal with at what point the present action begins--the present participle never does in koine Greek!

The present tense is not normally used in Greek to show ingression, or beginning. Daniel Wallace's grammar gives only two instances when the present is ingressive: the "mostly futuristic" use in which "The present tense may describe an event begun (Wallace's emphasis) in the present time, but completed in the future" (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 537). Again, there is an ingressive-progressive use of the present imperative (Wallace, p. 721-722). But our three passages in 1 John fit neither of these cases."
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Kind of sad a pastor has such a poor grasp on hermeneutics. Do you have any clue on WHY Paul wrote these letters to the church at Corinth?

Continue to interpret Bible through your theology, Luke

Sure, I do Webdog. Do you? Do you not know that part of it was to defend his Apostleship?

Do you not know that chapter 2 begins by speaking of how he CAME to them?

What condition did he find them in?

What did God use Paul to do them?

They were lost- God used Paul to save them, didn't He? This was Paul's proof that he was an Apostle called of God, wasn't it?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Opinions are like nostrils.
Strange, I saw nothing proving pre-faith regeneration...even from the mouth of Christ.
I missed that one...but you should run that one by the person you are debating on another thread (John of Japan), would do you a world of good. From an earlier discussionon 1 John 5:1 "the present participle in both cases does not deal with at what point the present action begins--the present participle never does in koine Greek!

The present tense is not normally used in Greek to show ingression, or beginning. Daniel Wallace's grammar gives only two instances when the present is ingressive: the "mostly futuristic" use in which "The present tense may describe an event begun (Wallace's emphasis) in the present time, but completed in the future" (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 537). Again, there is an ingressive-progressive use of the present imperative (Wallace, p. 721-722). But our three passages in 1 John fit neither of these cases."

James White is one of the foremost linguistic scholars on the matter. You are welcome to watch the video if you are really seeking enlightenment on this issue.

If you listen to people who tell you that I John does not mean that the new birth precede the believing you are going to be forced into some deadly doctrine because the exact same wording is what John utilizes to say
"Ye know that everyone that doeth righteousness is born of God" I John 2:29

Are you willing to say that doing righteousness precedes being born of God- that doing righteousness is what brings about being born of God?

Do you do righteousness to be born of God or do you do righteousness because you HAVE BEEN born of God?


Then you are going to have another serious problem with "everyone that loveth is born of God" I John 4:7

Do you have to love so that you can be born of God or do you love because you HAVE BEEN born of God?
 

webdog

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Sure, I do Webdog. Do you? Do you not know that part of it was to defend his Apostleship?
Yes...was that the main purpose? No.
Do you not know that chapter 2 begins by speaking of how he CAME to them?
yes.
What condition did he find them in?
Mainly pride and carnality.
What did God use Paul to do them?

They were lost- God used Paul to save them, didn't He? This was Paul's proof that he was an Apostle called of God, wasn't it?
Are you serious?!? They were BELIEVERS, Luke! His purpose was to deal with several moral problems and the divisions in the church that formed as people were taking allegiance with Apollos, Peter, Paul or Christ...and to answer questions that had been asked of him in a letter from the Corinthians.

You are way right of center on this!
 

webdog

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James White is one of the foremost linguistic scholars on the matter. You are welcome to watch the video if you are really seeking enlightenment on this issue.
I should go to reformationtheology.com to find unbiased truth when the title is "regeneration precedes faith"? What other conclusion can be drawn when the presupposition has already been stated? I would rather spend 19 minutes on an unbiased source.
If you listen to people who tell you that I John does not mean that the new birth precede the believing you are going to be forced into some deadly doctrine because the exact same wording is what John utilizes to say
"Ye know that everyone that doeth righteousness is born of God" I John 2:29
We had a whole thread on this back in May...and there is no "deadly doctrine" by believing the truth in the text. Everyone that doeth (present tense) is born of God (past tense). What is deadly about that?
Are you willing to say that doing righteousness precedes being born of God- that doing righteousness is what brings about being born of God?
Not even close to what that text is saying, Luke.
Do you do righteousness to be born of God or do you do righteousness because you HAVE BEEN born of God?
Like the text says, those who are presently doing righteousness have been born of God at some point in the past. No pre-faith regeneration proof there.
Then you are going to have another serious problem with "everyone that loveth is born of God" I John 4:7

Do you have to love so that you can be born of God or do you love because you HAVE BEEN born of God?
Just like 1 John 5:1 and 1 John 2:29 there is no problem. Everyone that loveth (present tense) is born of God (past tense). Those that currently love have been born of God in the past.

This is the only possibility for all 3 interpretations, and what the greek supports.
 

Amy.G

New Member
They were lost- God used Paul to save them, didn't He? This was Paul's proof that he was an Apostle called of God, wasn't it?

The church at Corinth was lost??? How could it be a church then? Why did Paul address them this way:

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:



Maybe they were regenerated but not saved yet. :laugh:
 
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preacher4truth

Active Member
The church at Corinth was lost??? How could a be a church then? Why did Paul address them this way:

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:



Maybe they were regenerated but not saved yet. :laugh:



LOL Amy, I can't sit back and be quiet any longer.

This guy Luke is way off track.

Good luck!!!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I should go to reformationtheology.com to find unbiased truth when the title is "regeneration precedes faith"? What other conclusion can be drawn when the presupposition has already been stated? I would rather spend 19 minutes on an unbiased source.
We had a whole thread on this back in May...and there is no "deadly doctrine" by believing the truth in the text. Everyone that doeth (present tense) is born of God (past tense). What is deadly about that?
Not even close to what that text is saying, Luke.
Like the text says, those who are presently doing righteousness have been born of God at some point in the past. No pre-faith regeneration proof there.
Just like 1 John 5:1 and 1 John 2:29 there is no problem. Everyone that loveth (present tense) is born of God (past tense). Those that currently love have been born of God in the past.

This is the only possibility for all 3 interpretations, and what the greek supports.

Yes, and everyone one that believeth (present tense) is born of God (past tense).

Therefore, everyone that believes started believing AFTER they were born of God.

Just like everyone that does righteousness started doing righteousness (not before) but AFTER they were born of God.

Just like everyone that loveth started loving AFTER they were born of God.

You don't get to have John saying that folks started loving AFTER they were born of God and then twist 5:1 and have folks believing BEFORE they were born of God. You don't get to do that.

And that is consistent with what Jesus said in John 3 on his great discourse on the new birth when he told Nicodemus- "Except ye be born again you cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."

You cannot see it, you cannot comprehend it until you are born of God FIRST. Therefore faith must come AFTER the new birth because before it no one can even SEE the Kingdom of God.

That is consistent with I Corinthians 2: 14 and a host of other passages some of which I have already posted on this thread.
 
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