Is Lying always wrong?

[blackbird]

I got "jammed" over this subject last time it was resurrected--on this resurrection of the topic I will say "Yes! In order to save life and not loose it!" For instance--during the occupation of Holland---the ten Boom's used deception(a form of lieing) and out and out spoken lies to hide the Jews coming to their house.

I believe that I, too, could have looked the Nazi Gestapo Captain straight in the face and in all conscienciousness and with no regrets tell him to his face---"There are no Jews in this house!"---knowing all along I have a closet full of um third floor attic upstairs and plan on having more if I can get away with it!!

I'd do it tomorrow if it would save a life!

Blackbird

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Don,
You say that God blessed them for saving lives and not for lying. You cannot separate the two. It was the lying that caused their lives to be saved.

 

[Jim1999]

I said I would never again address a situation on the BaptistBoard, but feel compelled to speak here.

Have a member of your family with Alzheimer's and they fall into the state of believing they are living in another world. One cannot reason otherwise. You lie to them. It is all they understand. My father-on-law thinks he is back in England. I talk with him in Cockney and he smiles; I talk about English football games, going back 50 years, and he smiles. I lie to him and don't feel one ounce of guilt before man or before God,,In fact, I think God is smiling too.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[aefting]

In the "Would you do it" thread, I addressed the issue of Rahab lying. So I won't repeat that here, except to make a couple points and to raise a related question.

I think we would all admit that killing is vastly more severe than lying. At the very least, you can correct a lie; you cannot undo a murder.

Nevertheless, in war you may kill the enemy. I believe you may also deceive or lie to the enemy -- because God so instructed Joshua at Ai (and thus I believe that justifies Rahab's actions). So, I am at peace with the idea that God approves of lying as an act of war.

I think most on this board would also justify killing in self-defense. If killing in self-defense is OK, then some might argue that lying in self-defense is OK (similar to the mid-wives example). But I am not comfortable with that idea yet, maybe because it would be too easy to abuse.

Andy

 

[donnA]

Doesn't it seem like people lie with such ease, as if it really is nohting. A way of life it seems. People do it all the time and don't think of it. I am sure some of the times we don't even consider just what a lie is. Such as concealing the truth, neglecting the truth, in addition to out right telling of an untruth.
Women saying they are years younger when in fact they are years older then they claim is just one lie told all the time, and no one thinks anything of it as if it is expected, by worldy standards.(BTW, I don't care who knows I am 38). I am sure there are a lot of little things that are a lie in one wya or another that have become, even among christiasn acceptable,and expected.

 

[Hardsheller]

I lied to an elected state official one time to protect another person's job.

I would do it again.

 

[christine]

YES.
My mother always said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say it at all".
There maybe times that you don't give your opinion or choose to be silent, but withholding information when asked or changing facts is lying.
I have told supervisors that if they were going to do something sneaky, they needed to let me know so I could leave, Because if I knew about it I would have to tell.
I had one that used to say, "hey Worden, go smoke!" This was code for you don't want to know what's gonna happen.
Christine

 

[hsmom3]

I am an extremely honest person, even to my own detriment at times. I just have a deep fear of God and was brought up that way and I try to be as obedient as I can in all areas of life. However, in the matter of lying, sometimes people will ask you things that are flat-out none of their business, like "Are you on welfare?" (just an example) etc. If you say that is none of your business (in a polite way, of course), they've got their answer. How do you respond without lying, but definitely getting them off your back and protecting your family's privacy? I think here in the deep South, people tend to be EXTREMELY nosey. lol

hsmom3

 

[ColoradoFB]

Originally posted by hsmom3:
I am an extremely honest person, even to my own detriment at times. I just have a deep fear of God and was brought up that way and I try to be as obedient as I can in all areas of life. However, in the matter of lying, sometimes people will ask you things that are flat-out none of their business, like "Are you on welfare?" (just an example) etc. If you say that is none of your business (in a polite way, of course), they've got their answer. How do you respond without lying, but definitely getting them off your back and protecting your family's privacy? I think here in the deep South, people tend to be EXTREMELY nosey. lol

hsmom3

I think it was the late Abigail Van Buren who had a great reply . . .

"I cannot imagine why you would want to know that?"

Makes 'em look like the busybodies they are.

 

[bapterian]

Someone please define lying.
Someone please define when it is common sense that one must use deceit to overcome an enemy.

Lying is the willful intent to deceive someone. Lying is always used in warfare. You don't let the enemy know your strategy. If you do, lives are lost and you lose battles and the war.

This is tough one because the Bible clearly teaches that we are not to bear "false witness" against one another. Clearly, lying is a sin and eliminates trust with our friends and professional relationships. Lying is so serious that people lose their jobs over it.

That being said, I will willingly lie to someone if I know that telling the truth will put my family or friends in danger. Of course, I will be accountable to God for my actions.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Don:
Man, now THIS was a thread some time back!

Indeed it was!!! But please, the phrase "some time back", that's almost like the phrase my son always uses on me, "Back in the day." Trying to make me sound old???

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

I think the Bible is pretty clear on how God perceives lying. The word lie in Leviticus was defined as "to cheat, to be untrue" I think we all know what a lie is. To try and define it is to try and find excuses for cases in which some are not considered lies. That is dangerous ground. We are told not to lean on our own understanding. To make excuses for some lies, without scriptural support, is to use our own understanding and not trust in the Lord with all of our heart. Which is at the heart of the question, do you trust Him?

Leviticus 19:11
"`Do not steal. "`Do not lie. "`Do not deceive one another." NIV

Jeremiah 9:3
"They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not by truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me," declares the LORD.
4
"Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. For every brother is a deceiver, and every friend a slanderer.
5
Friend deceives friend, and no one speaks the truth. They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning.
6
You live in the midst of deception; in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me," declares the LORD NIV

Isaiah 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.
2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
3
For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. Your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.
4
No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
...
13
rebellion and treachery against the LORD, turning our backs on our God, fomenting oppression and revolt, uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
14
So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter.
15
Truth is nowhere to be found, and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey. The LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice. NIV

Ezekiel 13:19
You have profaned me among my people for a few handfuls of barley and s****s of bread. By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live. NIV

Hosea 11:12
Ephraim has surrounded me with lies, the house of Israel with deceit. And Judah is unruly against God, even against the faithful Holy One. NIV


Nahum 3:1
Woe to the city of blood, full of lies, full of plunder, never without victims! NIV

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
13
The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid." NIV

Psalm 5:5
The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
6
You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors. NIV


Psalm 10:7
His mouth is full of curses and lies and threats; trouble and evil are under his tongue NIV


Psalm 12:2 Everyone lies to his neighbor; their flattering lips speak with deception.
3
May the LORD cut off all flattering lips and every boastful tongue NIV

Psalm 34:13
keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. NIV


Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. NIV


Psalm 59:12
For the sins of their mouths, for the words of their lips, let them be caught in their pride. For the curses and lies they utter, NIV


Psalm 62:4 They fully intend to topple him from his lofty place; they take delight in lies. With their mouths they bless, but in their hearts they curse NIV


Psalm 120:2
Save me, O LORD, from lying lips and from deceitful tongues. NIV


Proverbs 6:16
There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17
haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18
a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19
a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. NIV


Proverbs 12:17
A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells lies. NIV


Proverbs 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies. NIV

Proberbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free. NIV

Proverbs 19:9
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will perish NIV


Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler listens to lies, all his officials become wicked NIV


Proverbs 30:8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me NIV


Proverbs 12:19
Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue lasts only a moment. NIV


Proverbs 12:22
The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful. NIV


Proverbs 17:7 Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler! NIV

John 18:37

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." NIV


1 Cor 13:5-6
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. NIV


Colossians 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its NIV


1 John 2:21
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. NIV


Titus 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time NIV

Can you honestly say that you are walking in the Spirit when you knowingly lie? Would the Spirit ever make you do something contrary to His own word? If so, what good is His Word for?

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Don,
You say that God blessed them for saving lives and not for lying. You cannot separate the two. It was the lying that caused their lives to be saved.

Terry, I have no illusions that I'm gonna change your mind.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Doesn't say "lied to the people looking for them," or even "saved their lives."

Just something to ponder. Like I said, I have no illusions that I'm going to change your mind. We each have to be fully persuaded in our own minds (Romans 14:5).

Blackbird, it was mentioned on that past thread: Corrie ten Boom stated in subsequent years that she wished she hadn't lied. I fervently pray that none of us ever find ourselves in the position where we have to make that choice.

Lorelei, in computer/interenet time frames, three-six months ago WAS "back in the day"!!!

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by bapterian:
I will willingly lie to someone if I know that telling the truth will put my family or friends in danger. Of course, I will be accountable to God for my actions.

So far, lying is OK in war.
Lying is OK in defense of physical violence.
Lying seems to be OK if not lying is harmful. But, isn't that what ALL lying is. It is done because you believe that telling the truth is going to result in "some sort" of perceived harm being done either to someone else or yourself.

I really don't want to get into the "What would you do?" scenerios. Does anyone want me to be the standard for what people "ought" to do. (Stop laughing, I can hear you from here.

)

All I know is, God is my Standard, Jesus is my Example, and the Holy Spirit is my Conscience and not one of them has ever lied for ANY reason. I think we (and I do mean WE) are missing something and should not be so quick to defend lying. I have grave doubts about lying ANYTIME and will continue to defend telling the truth at ALL times until I am convinced that God approves.

 

[bapterian]

(Lying)...is done because you believe that telling the truth is going to result in "some sort" of perceived harm being done either to someone else or yourself.

I don't believe in "situational ethics". Telling the truth is a moral absolute. Lying is sin, regardless of the circumstance or situation. This is why I stated that I'm accountable to God for my actions. However, I will not give a person, who has evil intentions, the information they need to carry out their violence.

 

[Gwyneth]

"However, I will not give a person, who has evil intentions, the information they need to carry out their violence"
So would you `lie` to them ?
Gwyneth

 

[Jailminister]

Thanks for all the replies. Here is my opinion(repeat opinion):

I believe it is a matter of heart. In my life I have lied for realy no reason except to keep out of trouble, and with that came heavy conviction from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was grieved. However, I remember on one occasion I decieve(or lied) to someone to save someone elses life. In this case I was not convicted of wrong doing. I believe the Holy Spirit understood what I had done and why. I don't believe the Holy Spirit was grieved with me. I know the Bible says that all liars will go to Hell, but that is someone who practices lying as their lifestyle or a major part in their lifestyle. I do believe we should not lie and if we do we need to ask forgiveness from God and those we offended, but I do believe it is a matter of the heart.
Thanks,

 

[ColoradoFB]

While I believe an untruth for a greater good is not a moral shortcoming, is this not a form of situational ethics?

 

[dianetavegia]

I worked in a private mental institution for a number of years and met many people who lied so easily and yet did not even seem to realize they were lying. For them, their mental illness was the cause.

I think, even in the normal, healthy population, that people tell one lie and get away with it and then it snowballs into such an ugly habit.... yet most feel NO guilt about it at all.

Lying is sin. Sin is wrong. Period.

 

[aefting]

I think, even in the normal, healthy population, that people tell one lie and get away with it and then it snowballs into such an ugly habit.... yet most feel NO guilt about it at all.

Lying is sin. Sin is wrong. Period.

I agree that lying is a terrible epidemic today. It frustrates me to no end to see the total disregard for truth and moral integrity. I just wish it was as easy as you say. What do you make of these Scriptures:

Ex. 1:19-20 -- The mid-wives lie to save the lives of the male children. Verse 20 says that God commends them, "So God dealt well with the midwives." (ESV)

1 Sam. 16:1-2 -- God instructs Samuel to use a ruse to deceive Saul as to the true intent of his trip to Bethlehem.

Joshua 8 -- God instructs Joshua to set an ambush for the men of Ai in which the Children of Israel "pretended to be beaten before them." (8:15, ESV)

2 Kings 6:18-20 -- Here Elisha, apparently with God's approval since God answered his prayer and blinded them and did not rebuke him, tells an untruth for the purpose of deceiving the Syrians.


So, is all lying/deception really a sin, period?

What do all you think of a head-fake in basketball?


Andy