Is Mary Omini-present ?

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

You didn't answer me on these questions:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Can she intercede for the churches without knowing the individual's life and problems ?
Throughout the world, I understand, there are about 1 million Holy Roman Catholic church ( at least more than 100,000 churches for 1.3 billion people) Was she so much super-naturally powerful while she was alive? When did she become so much powerful and intelligent after death ? How did she become so much widely travelling everywhere in the world ?

Do the people become much more powerful after they die ?

What is your ground that Her intercession is not for individual but for the churches ?

Does it become better if the prayers of the churches go to God thru Mary instead of bleievers' praying to God without passing thru Mary, directly?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nate,
Your answer will be appreciated.
Also, have you noticed the comments by Pope about Mary posted by BobRyan? How do you feel about them?

 

[nate]

Can she intercede for the churches without knowing the individual's life and problems ?

Yes. Because she is not praying for born again believers but rather the church institution.

Was she so much super-naturally powerful while she was alive?
No. But she is an example for us to follow after. It's interesting to note that the Bible never records Mary sinning. She did sin and was not perfect but it just never tells us she sinned.

Do the people become much more powerful after they die?
No.

What is your ground that Her intercession is not for individual but for the churches?
Church tradition and teaching.

Does it become better if the prayers of the churches go to God thru Mary instead of bleievers' praying to God without passing thru Mary, directly?
No right the opposite. We need to go to Christ not Mary. She can do nothing.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by nate:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
say she remained a perpetual virgin, none of which stand up to scripture.

Everything else you said I do not believe but could you point to Scripture that says Mary actaully had children? </font>[/QUOTE]You don't have to have children to lose your virginity

Mat 1:25 (WAV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
BTW, both James and Jude in the NT were Mary and Joseph's children.

 

[BobRyan]

Note that prayers to the dead are forbidden in scripture.

That alone should have put an "end" to the practice.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by webdog:
You don't have to have children to lose your virginity

Mat 1:25 (WAV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
BTW, both James and Jude in the NT were Mary and Joseph's children.

True but why did Jesus tell Mary that John was her son? If Jesus had brothers and sisters they would have taken care of her would they not have?

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by nate:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
You don't have to have children to lose your virginity

Mat 1:25 (WAV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
BTW, both James and Jude in the NT were Mary and Joseph's children.

True but why did Jesus tell Mary that John was her son? If Jesus had brothers and sisters they would have taken care of her would they not have? </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily. We are not given the circumstances involving Jesus' siblings. It could be they were no longer speaking to Mary, as they refused to believe Jesus was the Messiah, something Mary obviously knew. I agree with Albert Barnes when he says... "Behold, my beloved disciple shall be to you a son, and provide for you, and discharge toward you the duties of an affectionate child. Mary was poor. It would even seem that now she had no home. Jesus, in his dying moments, filled with tender regard for his mother, secured for her an adopted son, obtained for her a home, and consoled her grief by the prospect of attention from him who was the most beloved of all the apostles. What an example of filial attention! What a model to all children! And how lovely appears the dying Saviour, thus remembering his afflicted mother, and making her welfare one of his last cares on the cross, and even when making atonement for the sins of the world!"

 

[nate]

John 19:27 "Then he said to the disciple, "Here is your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home." It still seems strange Jesus "brothers" would reject Mary just because she chose to believe He was the Savior.

The Septuagint—the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by the Apostles (abbreviated LXX)—includes specific words for “cousin,” notably adelphinos and anepsios, but they are rarely used. The less specific word adelphos, which can mean “brother,” “cousin,” “kinsman,” “fellow believer,” or “fellow countryman,” is used consistently throughout the LXX, even when cousin or kinsman is clearly the relation described (such as in Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12; Tobit 7:2; etc.). Lot, for instance, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Genesis 11:27–31), is called his brother in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14–16. The point is that the commonly used Greek word for a male relative, adelphos, can be translated “cousin” or “brother” if no specific family relation is indicated.

Is there anywhere a clear statement in the Scriptures establishing Jesus’ brothers as literally the children of Mary? In fact, there is not. Nowhere is Mary explicitly stated to be the mother of Jesus’ brothers. The formula for speaking of the Lord’s family is “His mother and His brothers.” In Mark the possessive, anavtou—”of Him,” is inserted before both “His mother” and “His brothers,” making a clear distinction. In Acts 1:14, the separation is more pronounced: “Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers.” Some manuscripts use the conjunctive syn—“along with, in company with,” so that the text reads “Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers.” In any case, Mary is never identified as the mother of Jesus’ brothers (nor they as her children), but only as the Mother of Jesus.

 

[nate]

To me it doesn't really matter if she was ever-virgin. But there is a logical explanation on both sides.

 

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

At the scene of Cross, do you think neither Matthew nor Mark, nor Luke mentioned about Mary mother of Jesus?

Mary Mother of Jose was mentioned ( Mark 15:40)
She confirmed the tomb ( Mark 15:47)
Mark 6:3 mentions the same persons as the brothers of Jesus : Yakobou, Yose, Yudah, Simon.
Especially, Yose is mentioned in Vatican Text as Yosetos both in Mark 6:3 and Mark 15:40.

Yosetos is the only name for that person in NT.
Therefore, Yose or Yosetos is the same person on Mk 6:3 and 15:40, and that name of the person following the mother of Jesus in Mk 6:3 and stated as Brother of Jesus.

Was she not Mary Mother of Jesus ?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by nate:
True but why did Jesus tell Mary that John was her son? If Jesus had brothers and sisters they would have taken care of her would they not have? [/QB]

Jesus didn't say John is her son, but said to John Mary is thy mother. You can understand this expression, if you read Mt 12:49-50 behold, my mother and my brothers. In the same manner, the elderly woman believers are the mothers for the young believers.

The reason why Jesus assigned His mother to John, instead of James and Jose is found in the Bible.
Mt 12:46-50 tells us that Mary was moved by her unbelieving children and came to tell Jesus something. She didn't come there to listen to Him, but wanted to tell Him. What was she trying to tell Him ?
Mark 3:21 tells us that the immediate relatives
of Jesus tried to hold him saying "He is mad", and John 7:1-5 shows that even the borthers of Jesus didn't believe Him. This tells us that Mary was moved by the relatives and her children very much, and didn't have much faith enough to cope with such unbelief of the close relatives.
If Mary continues to live with them, she would be moved by the relatives.

Therefore Jesus didn't want her to stay with her children, but live with the brethren in the faith.

This is why Jesus said to John Behold thy mother! ( Not your mother as RC says) It says Mary as the mother of John, not the mother of whole believers.

In OT brothers embrace variety of relatives.
But in NT, in Greek, Adelpos meant 3 types only:
1) Brother in family
2) Brother as a fellow Jewish
3) Brother in faith
All brothers appear ca 330 times in OT.
It doesn't mean the relatives like nephew or cousin ( Anepsios in Col 4:10)
relative ( in Luke 1:36, sunngenes)

If Mary lived the celibacy, she was not faithful with the bible teaching. When Paul was mentiong the responsibility of the wives in 1 Cor 7:1-5, he was not inventing a new teachings at that time. Such truth was in God's providence all the time throughout the history as we see in Genesis 2:18 ( Living alone is not good)

Catholics misunderstand that any celibacy means the holier life than the marriage life. Often Rc refers to Celibacy in Mt 19:10-12, but such celibacy or life of eunuchs should be following the will of God. Otherwise, it is a human made over-excessive loyalty to God, which was not demanded by God at all.

 

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

If you do not pray to Mary, do you give thanks to her or not? I ask this because some people say that they don't pray to her, but give thanks to her wherever they go.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Nate,

If you do not pray to Mary, do you give thanks to her or not? I ask this because some people say that they don't pray to her, but give thanks to her wherever they go.

Not really. I believe she is the Theotokos (Greek for "she who conceived, carried, and gave birth to God"). But I never pray or 'talk' or bless Mary.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Jesus didn't say John is her son, but said to John Mary is thy mother. You can understand this expression, if you read Mt 12:49-50 behold, my mother and my brothers. In the same manner, the elderly woman believers are the mothers for the young believers.

The reason why Jesus assigned His mother to John, instead of James and Jose is found in the Bible.
Mt 12:46-50 tells us that Mary was moved by her unbelieving children and came to tell Jesus something. She didn't come there to listen to Him, but wanted to tell Him. What was she trying to tell Him ?
Mark 3:21 tells us that the immediate relatives
of Jesus tried to hold him saying "He is mad", and John 7:1-5 shows that even the borthers of Jesus didn't believe Him. This tells us that Mary was moved by the relatives and her children very much, and didn't have much faith enough to cope with such unbelief of the close relatives.
If Mary continues to live with them, she would be moved by the relatives.

Therefore Jesus didn't want her to stay with her children, but live with the brethren in the faith.

This is why Jesus said to John Behold thy mother! ( Not your mother as RC says) It says Mary as the mother of John, not the mother of whole believers.

This is an interesting point because this is one of the passages that establishes Mary as the "Mother of the Church". Notice not 'head' of the church that is obviously Jesus. But she was the 'mother'of John in a spiritual sense.

 

[Eliyahu]

Do you know that Ephesians 5 say that Church is the bride and Rev 21 confirms it as well.

Then, if Mary is Mother of the Church and Christ is Husband of the Church, how is the relationship between Jesus and Mary? Does Mary belong to the Church or not? or Are you describing Mary is an outsider of the Church?
or Mother is a Bride for Christ?

Do you think saying John " behold thy mother" is good enough for many to believe that Mary is Mother of God?
To me, it is a very much skipping theology !

 

[Eliyahu]

should read:
Do you think saying John " behold thy mother" is good enough for many to believe that Mary is Mother of Church ?

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
should read:
Do you think saying John " behold thy mother" is good enough for many to believe that Mary is Mother of Church ?

No I don't really care what you believe about Mary but it is enough for me.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Then, if Mary is Mother of the Church and Christ is Husband of the Church, how is the relationship between Jesus and Mary? Does Mary belong to the Church or not? or Are you describing Mary is an outsider of the Church?
or Mother is a Bride for Christ?

The relationship between Mary and Jesus is mother to Son. It's really not that complicated.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. Do you believe that Mary is a member of the Church which is body of Jesus Christ ?

1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it.

2. You said Mary is the mother of Church.

3. Bible says Church is Body of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:23)

4. Do you say that Mary is not a member of the church but is on top of Jesus Christ ?

Headship is explained this way:

Head of woman - Man - Head of Man - Christ - Head of Christ - God. ( 1 Cor 11:1-3)


Where do you find Mary is Mother of Church ?
Where do you find Mary is Mother of Christ, in the headship of the church after resurrection of Jesus Christ?

 

[nate]

#1. In a sense but in reality I see her as the spiritual Mother of the Church.

#2. Mary is the spiritual Mother of the church.

#3. Yes it does

#4. No she's not on top of Jesus Christ in either power or authority.

It's more figurative than anything else. As mother of the Church we claim she has no power or super ordinary power. Much of what is taught about Mary being the Mother of the Church is in church tradition and early Father quotes.

 

[bapmom]

actually nate,

his point about Jesus saying "behold thy mother" was that the older women believers were to teach and train the younger women as mothers do.....they were to "mother" the younger ones. This is in no way an indication that Mary herself was THE spiritual mother of the church.

and in fact, if you go on in that passage, you will see that Jesus indicates those around Him (His followers) as being His brethren AND His mother.

So if we were to follow your logic nate, than Jesus would have indicated that ALL women within His churches are the spiritual mothers of the church.