Is Mary Omini-present ?

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by nate:
#1. In a sense but in reality I see her as the spiritual Mother of the Church .

___________________________________________________________

That is your thought, not the teachings of Bible.

But Bible says this:

Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Paul is talking about Sarah-Jerusalem-Our Mother.
This means that Woman of covenent of freedom is Sarah and she is Our Mother. Even in that case he doesn't say that Sarah is the Mother of the Church.

Does he mention about Mary as Mother of Church ?

If Mary is Mother of Church, she may be Omni-present, because Church is Omni-Present, and Ever-present throughout the history.

 

[nate]

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189])." Irenaeus

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]). Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]). Athanasius

We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D.431] Council of Ephusus

"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]). Cyril of Alexandria

"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382] Gregory of Nazianz

 

[nate]

"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" Jerome(Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]). Cyril of Alexandria

"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema" (ibid.). Cyril of Alexandria

"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]). Peter of Alexandria

"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]). Ephraim the Syrian

 

[bapmom]

nate,

why do you quote these men and not address the Bible? You are steeped in Catholic thinking, as is shown in many of your posts all over the board. You quote Catholic priests, monks and popes more than you quote your Bible...and you place their quotes within context more than you do your BIble quotes. You need to rely more on your Bible than you do on the catechism....especially as you claim to be baptist, and not catholic. BTW, any man who claims that Mary is "holy" is wrong. She is no more holy than you or I. None of us has any holiness in us besides Jesus Christ.

Now, why not address the Bible passage that we are talking about here? In this passage Jesus clearly places all believers on the same level as His own mother. He is literally saying that all men are as His brothers, and all the women are as His mother. You, nate, are just as important to Jesus as His own brother James was. I am just as important to Jesus as His mother Mary was.

There is never anywhere in the Bible that says that Mary was the spiritual mother of any person, any place, or any thing.

 

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

I think you can bring millions of comments from outside of Bible.

Of course 1.3 billion may be confessing every week.

Can you bring one single verse mentioning Mary as Mother of Church ?

 

[nate]

Originally posted by bapmom:
why do you quote these men and not address the Bible? You are steeped in Catholic thinking, as is shown in many of your posts all over the board.

I'm not Catholic. I'm not steeped in any such thing. "All over" the board.

You quote Catholic priests, monks and popes more than you quote your Bible...and you place their quotes within context more than you do your BIble quotes.

None of the above were RCC as you assume except Jerome. I do rely on my Bible.

BTW, any man who claims that Mary is "holy" is wrong. She is no more holy than you or I.

I have never claimed Mary is holy.

You, nate, are just as important to Jesus as His own brother James was. I am just as important to Jesus as His mother Mary was.

I do not question this.

 

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

Is your God son of Mary ?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by nate:
I have never claimed Mary is holy.
[/QB]

But you posted " Holy Mary" quoted.
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If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382] Gregory of Nazianz
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Do you believe what you said before ?

Your own statements:

As for praying to Mary:
3. I would say yes that's probably heretical. Although I believe they say their prayers carry to heaven. But believing she could hear one in the way you stated would indeed be heresy.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Is your God son of Mary ?

Since Jesus Christ is God and is my Lord and Savior and Mary gave birth to Him~Yes.

 

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

Again, you are saying
God is Son of Mary ?

 

[bapmom]

nate,

not to quibble unnecessarily, but nearly all those men you quoted were early church "fathers".....which church do you think that is? That means they were Catholic. The catholics were the ones in charge religiously, and it is their quotes that have most often been passed down through our history. Not to mention that besides Jerome you also quoted the Council of Ephesus (catholic), and a letter to a PRIEST...Cedonius....catholic.

Like Eliyahu pointed out....you used quotes which included calling Mary holy....and you did not put any sort of clarification which would indicate that you disagree with any part of any of those quotes.

Now, what about the Bible?

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
But you posted " Holy Mary" quoted.

If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382] Gregory of Nazianz

Do you believe what you said before ?

Your own statements:

As for praying to Mary:
3. I would say yes that's probably heretical. Although I believe they say their prayers carry to heaven. But believing she could hear one in the way you stated would indeed be heresy.

Yes praying to Mary would be heretical. He may have I do not. But since your the one wanting Scripture to back everything up show me where Mary sinned in the Bible? Of course she was born with inherited sin but I'm refering to actual sin she committed. And you're telling me we can't be holy why would God command us in First Peter 1:16 "For it is written, "You must be holy, because I am holy." ISV and in Leviticus 11:44 "For I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls upon the earth." RSV

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Nate,

Again, you are saying
God is Son of Mary ?

"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430] Cyril of Alexandria
bold and italics mine. God did not have a beginning but yet Mary was Jesus "mother".

 

[bapmom]

nate,

so do you consider it appropriate to call yourself holy then? Those who call Mary the "Holy Virgin" do so with more in mind than just "be ye holy for I am holy." They are claiming for her a special sort of holiness which has set her apart from all other believers. As is the title "Mother of God" and "Mother of the Church."

Many people in the Bible are mentioned without any listing of their sin. The prophet Daniel does not have a single negative thing written about him.....does this mean we assume he committed no act of sin his entire life? Lazarus, who Jesus raised from the dead, has no sins listed. The same is true of Joseph (Mary's husband), Timothy, as well as Timothy's mother and grandmother, Mary Magdalene, and many of the people who Paul mentions in his letters to the churches.
To simply state that the Bible doesn't list anything Mary did wrong is not a valid argument for her having DONE no wrong. Especially since the Bible states unequivocally that all have sinned....not just that all are born in sin....but all HAVE sinned.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by bapmom:
nate,

not to quibble unnecessarily, but nearly all those men you quoted were early church "fathers".....which church do you think that is? That means they were Catholic. The catholics were the ones in charge religiously, and it is their quotes that have most often been passed down through our history. Not to mention that besides Jerome you also quoted the Council of Ephesus (catholic), and a letter to a PRIEST...Cedonius....catholic.

Now, what about the Bible?

They were not Fathers of todays modern RCC.Rather they were Fathers of the 3 aposolic succession churches(anglican,eastern orthodoxy, and yes the early catholic church) For instance the RCC did not adopt many of the heresies they espouse until the Middle Ages. The title Pope was not given until 610 A.D. Adoration of saints 788 A.D. fabrication of holy water 1009 A.D. Priest forbidden to marry 1070 A.D. sale of indulgences 1190 A.D. sacrifice of mass 1215 A.D. confession of sins to priest 1215 A.D. purgatory 1438 immaculate conception of Mary 1845 A.D. (of which I disagree) infallibility of the pope 1870 A.D. So as you can see it did not become the RCC as we know it today until much after the quotes of the men I gave above.

 

[bapmom]

They still aren't Bible, nate. Yet you continue to quote these other men as if they have some authority scripturally. Think for yourself. Stop letting these men think for you. It doesn't matter what they said, it matters what the Bible says.

What does the Bible say about this? You are dancing around the issue here.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by bapmom:
so do you consider it appropriate to call yourself holy then? Those who call Mary the "Holy Virgin" do so with more in mind than just "be ye holy for I am holy." They are claiming for her a special sort of holiness which has set her apart from all other believers. As is the title "Mother of God" and "Mother of the Church."

I believe Mary sinned. I do not believe in immaculate conception and I do not believe in her bodily assumption. But you asked for Bible that said Mary is the mother of the Church, and I asked for a verse to prove she wasn't without sin. Neither of us have provided either.

but all HAVE sinned.

I agree.

 

[Eliyahu]

Nate,

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,

Luke 2:
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing

- Why was she separated from God (Jesus)?
- Why is she calling Joseph as the father of Jesus, while Jesus is saying: He has another Father.

wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business ?


What was Mary trying to tell Jesus ?
Matthew 12:46-47

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Wasn't she trying to tell Jesus that He should stop preaching Gospel or avoid the bad reputation among the people ?

Why was she coming to tell Him instead of listening to Him ?

 

[bapmom]

nate,

the verse I gave you does prove that she wasn't without sin.......ALL have sinned would indicate.....ALL.....including Mary.

But there is no Bible verse that indicates that Mary is the spiritual mother of anything. In fact, the Bible explicitly puts her on the same plane as the rest of us believers in Christ. She is a follower of Christ, no more or less important than any of the rest of us. She is indicated as having absolutely no special role in any aspect of the ministry of Christ, nor in any part of the establishing of the church. She is not ever again mentioned in Scripture beyond the scene at the foot of the cross. She now holds no special position, nor is she to be afforded any special honor. Jesus Himself made that clear.

good points, Eliyahu.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by bapmom:
They still aren't Bible, nate. Yet you continue to quote these other men as if they have some authority scripturally. Think for yourself. Stop letting these men think for you. It doesn't matter what they said, it matters what the Bible says.

Irenaus whom I quoted was given his role of Bishop by the apostle John. I think his interpetation of things is better than mine or yours. No they are not Bible. The Bible never says Mary is the Mother of the Church or that she intercedes for it.