Is my church overstepping or not?

[clayjar]

There's nothing wrong with being changed. It's just having someone implementing a contract to keep you "righteous".

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by clayjar:
It's just having someone implementing a contract to keep you "righteous".

I haven't seen anything here suggesting this is a "contract to keep your 'righteous.'" Far from it ... this is letting people know what is expected of them for various ministry roles. In teh church, this started with the apostles, so it is not unreasonable to have it here.

Secondly, accountability relationships are, in a sense, "contracts to keep your righteous." It is well established that encouragement and accountability help to foster growth. Again, the principles of this are found in the NT so we should not be surprised to find them in the NT church.

 

[clayjar]

Do you think there's a better way to be accountable than signing a contract?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by clayjar:
Do you think there's a better way to be accountable than signing a contract?

It depends on teh situation ... In this one, a signed statement (which is more accurate than calling it a contract) for numerous people makes sure that everyone has the same understanding, that everyone is being held to the same standard, and prevents confusion. For other situations, this may be unnecessary. I don't have have a signed statement for our teachers and workers. But we all have a personal relationship in a small setting. However, when I did have to ask someone to step down for a time, there was some hurt and confusion because there had been no standard set up ahead of time. Had I had something like this, I could have pointed to it to say, "This si what you agreed to." Let's work it out and get it back ...

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
If that is the case then we would have 100 percent excluding those who are not believers who are able to make disciples. Disciples make disciples. What you have stated is a myth right from many theological schools.

It is not a myth at all. At the heart of discipleship is teaching what God says. If a pastor is not teaching what God says, then he needs to resign. What I have said is absolutely true. And it is probably not all that the pastor does. I know it is not all that I do in disciple-making. I have noticed in your posts on this subject in other places, you seem to have something stuck in your craw about pastors. I wish you would get over it.

I don't disagree about taking people along and teaching them; that is what discipleship is. Pastors are probably more involved in that than you think. And it is good that you learned from the one who led you to Christ. That is the way it should happen. It is what i teach here.

It was a joy last week after Sunday morning church to see two of the men here stay for an hour to help a man who walked in with some spiritual problems. I listened from behind a door rather than jumping in because I wanted to give them the chance to put to practice what I have been teaching.

The majority of people in churches do not know how to lead another person to Christ and disciple them. If that is true then preachiung has done little.

Or perhaps that people are simply disobedient. There are people here who have never led anyone to Christ and have not discipled them. That is not because I have failed to teach and try to disciple them. That is because they are disobedient.

[qbYou are right discipleship begins with evangelism but it doesn't stop there.

Which is why I said it "begins" with it.

And I repeat, everytime a pastor steps into the pulpit, he is making disciples. That better be the focus of his teaching. But you can't force people to follow. They make choices about their own obedience. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Show me how Jesus made disciples by preaching alone. Preaching and presenting God’s word in hopes of the people being obedient is like a teacher teaching a lesson and then not holding his students accountable. Ever see an effective teacher who never holds his students accountable. When you tell the people to do evangelism do you teach them how by showing them how? Do you provide the example to them personally? If you are not teaching your congregation how to make disciples then you are not showing them how to be doers of the word.

I have nothing against pastors. I planted three churches and pastored two more. Pastors are my closest friends. But I would not avoid telling my friends the things they should hear. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.” But it is a myth to think that most seminaries teach discipleship. They do not. There are a few but the numbers are small. Those professors that disciple others will tell you the same thing. Discipleship is not about pumping a person up with intellectual knowledge only. Most people are not leaders. It is a small minority who will take what you preach on Sunday and do it without any help from someone else. It is around three percent. The rest need a model. That’s what Jesus did with His disciples.

Discipleship is not about your ability to preach and be a great orator but to be able to teach a new believer to reproduce himself in the lives of others. Preaching is a very small part of ministry. Certainly God uses preaching but that is not the only thing he uses. It’s like the old saying, “More is caught than will ever be taught.”

It takes about 20 months to two years to disciple someone for them to begin to get the vision and to pray for God to use him in the life of another.

If disciples are made exclusively by preaching then how do you think the people made disciples in countries where it was illegal to preach?

Sometime look at how Jesus made disciples and what he did with them. Then ask yourself, What did He do with them?” He sent them out two by two. He encouraged them and admonished them. He taught them to have faith and not have fear. He taught them to have a relationship with the true, living, God.

Maybe you do know that the statistics bear it out. Some years ago they put people through a basic discipleship program. Before the program about ten percent showed spirituality after the program the numbers were reversed.

I have pastored enough churches to know that the majority of people when I came did not know how to lead someone to Christ and disciple them. That includes ordained deacons.

This might surprise you, but I have met with several pastors over the years at their request to show them how to disciple others. I have been discipling people for 30 years now. You may disagree and that is your right. But I am challenging you to consider what Jesus did in making His disciples. Did he not have the best program ever?

When I was in college the man in charge of the BSU met with the man with The Navigators to learn how to do discipleship. He was a graduate of a well know theological seminary. His life was changed and he is still doing the same thing today. The pastor of the church I attended at that time also met with that same man to learn how to make disciples. The church was 1200 in attendance each week. The pastor was a very good pastor but did not know how to make disciples. He was very good at evangelism, but didn’t know what do with those he led to Christ. A man that I worked for graduated from a well know Bible College and told me that at the age of 55 he began to learn how to do discipleship. He died at the age of 76 and thee were 640 people at his funeral. Most of the people he had discipled were unable to attend because they were missionaries. He had pastored right out of Bible College but hadn’t learned to make disciples until he was 55. My Greek professor in seminary told me the same thing happened him at about the age of 40. He told me that the majority of pastors and professors do not know how to make disciples as well. He was a professor at the largest seminary in the US at the time. It is not just my opinion but the opinion of many other who know now and didn’t before. My Greek professor began to actively disciple others in an aggressive way once he knew how and saw the importance of it.

Some years ago I met with a group of those in charge of church planting to be considered to plant a church in that Baptist denomination. Before I ever met with the team of men I was asked about how I would lead a person to Christ and what would I do with them once they came to Christ.


While in college I considered being a missionary. So I met with the President of a mission board. He asked me about how I would lead someone to Christ and how I would follow them up. He also asked me about my personal devotional life too.

I would challenge you to take the hard step and to evaluate what you are actually teaching your congregation. Ask them what the president of the mission board asked me. I had never been to Bible school or seminary but was actively discipling others before I graduated from college. I learned how from the person who led me to Christ. I didn’t invent it. Jesus did. He commanded it.

I ask did you read the two sermons at http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=Born+to+Reproduce&url=csV8EdPVFzIJ:www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

Once you read those two sermons then come back and tell me what you think. The man who gave those sermons in about the 1950's started an organization that sends missionaries all over the US and abroad.

Let me know what you think of the sermons.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I never said that preaching alone would make disciples. It should, but it won't necessasrily. People need accountability and that is what this whole thread was about. A great many people, if I remember including yourself, poo-poo'ed this idea of accountabiliy. If you remember, I have said from the beginning that this kind of accountability in discipleship is absolutely necessary and I am the one who has been called a legalist.

My point was that every time to preach the word is a time to make disciples. Teaching/preaching the word is foundational to disciplship. If the preaching from the pulpit is not making disciples, then it should be stopped.

All discipleship should be done through the local church ministry. I did not read the links you gave. I glanced through it and it looked a whole lot like story telling. With no offense, I just don't have time for it. I spend too much time here already. But one of the problems with Navigators is that it is not working under the authority fo the local church. That is not the NT pattern for operation. Let's get back to the NT way of doing things, including our disciplemaking, and we will all be better off. I realize that my high view of ecclesiology is in the minority and that is fine. I simply think we need to be more rigid about the NT local church and the pattern for discipleship.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Well I have read every entry just to be sure I would not be repeating someone elses statement.Here is what I think for whatever it is worth; 1st I pretty much agree with Pastor Larry. Perhaps another reason this other Pastor was asking his people to sign contracts was to stress the importance of church ministries. It is no small thing to be a Sunday school teacher or Deacon,or bus captain,usher,or any other function in the church. Eyes are on you , people follow you and take not only what you say but your example as gospel, that is an awsome responsability.
So while setting up rules or guidelines as a contract may seem harsh, I think the heart of it is not. It is just as well to know when you are falling short and are in need of help.
At least I would hope this would be the intent and spirit of the contract.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I never said that preaching alone would make disciples. It should, but it won't necessasrily. People need accountability and that is what this whole thread was about. A great many people, if I remember including yourself, poo-poo'ed this idea of accountabiliy. If you remember, I have said from the beginning that this kind of accountability in discipleship is absolutely necessary and I am the one who has been called a legalist.

My point was that every time to preach the word is a time to make disciples. Teaching/preaching the word is foundational to disciplship. If the preaching from the pulpit is not making disciples, then it should be stopped.

All discipleship should be done through the local church ministry. I did not read the links you gave. I glanced through it and it looked a whole lot like story telling. With no offense, I just don't have time for it. I spend too much time here already. But one of the problems with Navigators is that it is not working under the authority fo the local church. That is not the NT pattern for operation. Let's get back to the NT way of doing things, including our disciplemaking, and we will all be better off. I realize that my high view of ecclesiology is in the minority and that is fine. I simply think we need to be more rigid about the NT local church and the pattern for discipleship.

I agree with most of what you said. But I will tell you from experience that the majority of people I have encountered in the local church do not do much more than sit through sermons each Sunday and are rarely if ever challenged to do ministry with the pastor or anyone else. Early in my Christian I asked several pastors to take me door to door. It took several before I found one who was doing it. I don’t know of one leader in the Navigators who is not equipped to do that. I have some friends who left Mormonism and it took talking with four pastors before they were even welcome in a church. Finally the pastor who welcomed asked them to teach the congregation to witness to Mormons. That church grew from 75 to about 600 in six years. Mostly due to Mormons becoming believers. After all that the deacons asked the pastor to leave. Churches don’t often want zealots for Jesus who will make a difference. They want the easy life that demands little. Jesus created quite a stir in the community. So will His disciples.

For years I have been doing discipleship through the local church. But what I have found is that the majority of times the local church is not leading in discipleship other than to have a bunch of programs. Jesus said to make disciples. We ought to have one program, “Making disciples.” We ought to be teaching people to walk with God by showing them how to share our faith and disciple others. If they don’t see it being done what are the chances they will do it?

You wrote, “All discipleship should be done through the local church ministry.” I agree. But what church sent out Paul? Sometimes we have to go it alone. Some years ago I sensed that the pastor was not open to discipleship. So I prayed that God would give me some men to disciple. That pastor found out who I was meeting with a changed his attitude .I met with three of the key youth workers in the church. After the pastor saw what was happening to theseworkers he invited me to preach and address the youth. But I fi had waited for him I would not have been reaching anyone during that time. Later he came to me and asked what we could do in the church. That was the start of a churchwide discipleship program. The fact is that most churches are not making disciples who make disciples. They are mostly making converts. Know of any churches that are doing evangelism on a regular basis? In every church I have pastored I did not start there with one leader who knew how to lead another to Christ and disciple that person. When I came to Christ I didn’t want to see a church. But the man who led me to Christ discipled me and eventually I went to church. I began to have a passion to disciple people through the church.

I you would have read the link I gave you, you would have read about a man who was like most soul winners and how God got ahold of him.

Let people call you a legalist .Think about what Jesus was called. Just ask them to name a few who’s living for Jesus Christ because of their life.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by gb93433:
But I will tell you from experience that the majority of people I have encountered in the local church do not do much more than sit through sermons each Sunday and are rarely if ever challenged to do ministry with the pastor or anyone else. Early in my Christian I asked several pastors to take me door to door.-

REmember that door to door is not the biblical command. There are a lot of ways to evangelize and make disciples without doing that.

Remember also that the pastor's job is not to "do the work of ministry." According to Eph 4, it is the pastors job to equip the saints to do the work of ministry. He should be training others. But that training can take place in numerous different ways.

Churches don’t often want zealots for Jesus who will make a difference. They want the easy life that demands little. Jesus created quite a stir in the community. So will His disciples.

I agree.

We ought to have one program, “Making disciples.”

All programs of our church are geared towards that very thing. We do different things, but all towards the same purpose.

But what church sent out Paul?

The church at Antioch (Acts 13). He did not just go out on his own. He went under the sending authority of a local church.

My point is that discipleship is out of the local church for the purpose of building the local church. It does not exist in a vacuum. If churches aren't doing it, then that is the problem of the church, not a problem with the NT mandate.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
But I will tell you from experience that the majority of people I have encountered in the local church do not do much more than sit through sermons each Sunday and are rarely if ever challenged to do ministry with the pastor or anyone else. Early in my Christian I asked several pastors to take me door to door.-

REmember that door to door is not the biblical command. There are a lot of ways to evangelize and make disciples without doing that.

Remember also that the pastor's job is not to "do the work of ministry." According to Eph 4, it is the pastors job to equip the saints to do the work of ministry. He should be training others. But that training can take place in numerous different ways.

Churches don’t often want zealots for Jesus who will make a difference. They want the easy life that demands little. Jesus created quite a stir in the community. So will His disciples.

I agree.

We ought to have one program, “Making disciples.”

All programs of our church are geared towards that very thing. We do different things, but all towards the same purpose.

But what church sent out Paul?

The church at Antioch (Acts 13). He did not just go out on his own. He went under the sending authority of a local church.

My point is that discipleship is out of the local church for the purpose of building the local church. It does not exist in a vacuum. If churches aren't doing it, then that is the problem of the church, not a problem with the NT mandate. </font>[/QUOTE]I think you hit the nail on the head. Exactly. The proof of a fishing trip lies in the fish you catch. The proof of a disciplemaking church lies in the disciples it makes.