Is our country really divided?

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Willie, please follow my point here.

You said:

If we are to believe the Bible, this country will need to continue its moral decline (condoning unnatural relationships, killing unborn children, pushing God out of everyday life, etc.).

My point is that Jesus could have returned in 1790. He didn't, and despite its faults, America grew into a Godly nation that honored God for a long time, becoming the greatest bastian of freedom in history. If you had made the above statement in 1789, you would have been wrong. So "if we believe the Bible", as you say, we do not necessarily com to the conclusion that you made.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Willie, please follow my point here.

You said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If we are to believe the Bible, this country will need to continue its moral decline (condoning unnatural relationships, killing unborn children, pushing God out of everyday life, etc.).

My point is that Jesus could have returned in 1790. He didn't, and despite its faults, America grew into a Godly nation that honored God for a long time, becoming the greatest bastian of freedom in history. If you had made the above statement in 1789, you would have been wrong. So "if we believe the Bible", as you say, we do not necessarily com to the conclusion that you made. </font>[/QUOTE]This is of course, relative to the rest of the world. America has never been what I would call, a "Godly" nation in many of its policies. From its inception, America has participated in slave trade, which was promoted by the original form of the Constitution. In the 20th century, even though we did away with slavery, we instituted another form of racism called segregation. In the past 30-40 years, it is no real secret about the sins of America and its moral decline. Even you just spent the past year or two highlighting that. Yes, America is relatively more moral and Godly than other nations in te world. But, that doesn't negate the sins of America in history and in the present.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Willie, please follow my point here.

I thought talking down to other posters was against the rules.

 

[williemakeit]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Willie, please follow my point here.

You said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If we are to believe the Bible, this country will need to continue its moral decline (condoning unnatural relationships, killing unborn children, pushing God out of everyday life, etc.).

My point is that Jesus could have returned in 1790. He didn't, and despite its faults, America grew into a Godly nation that honored God for a long time, becoming the greatest bastian of freedom in history. If you had made the above statement in 1789, you would have been wrong. So "if we believe the Bible", as you say, we do not necessarily com to the conclusion that you made. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not really sure which conclusion you are at odds with...

Is it "continuing moral decline in the most blessed nation in the history of mankind marking the imminent return of Christ"?

If it wasn't for the founding fathers, there would not have been a nation.

Sorry, Jim. I am trying to get your gist here.

 

[williemakeit]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Willie, please follow my point here.

I thought talking down to other posters was against the rules. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think he is. I have friends in Pennsylvania, and yankees just express themselves differently.

Every since they were old enough to talk, the girls have wanted me to move back to the South (they were born in Maryland). My family is in North Carolina, and the girls always loved it when we visited. Of course, I live about 10 miles from where my wife was born and grew up.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by williemakeit:

I am trying to get your gist here.

Willie, the only point of disagreement that I am chasing is your conclusion that the Bible teaches that, today, in 2004, it is inevitable that things have to go downhill.

They could; Jesus could return in 2005, or tomorrow. But, if he tarries for, say, 200 years, there are generations left who could build a very godly society in the meantime.

I'm not singling you out, I have heard the "things have to get worse" argument from many, and actually used to believe it myself. But I don't think it's biblical.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
This is of course, relative to the rest of the world. America has never been what I would call, a "Godly" nation in many of its policies. From its inception, America has participated in slave trade, which was promoted by the original form of the Constitution. In the 20th century, even though we did away with slavery, we instituted another form of racism called segregation. In the past 30-40 years, it is no real secret about the sins of America and its moral decline. Even you just spent the past year or two highlighting that. Yes, America is relatively more moral and Godly than other nations in te world. But, that doesn't negate the sins of America in history and in the present.

Joseph Botwinick

I agree, Joseph. But my point is that at any given time, it is not inevitable that things MUST get worse, as far as we can see. I was trying to illustrate that by pointing out that in the time of our nation's founding, it wasn't true...the founders did their work, God blessed, and things got very much better, overall, for many generations.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by williemakeit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Willie, please follow my point here.

I thought talking down to other posters was against the rules. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think he is. I have friends in Pennsylvania, and yankees just express themselves differently.

Every since they were old enough to talk, the girls have wanted me to move back to the South (they were born in Maryland). My family is in North Carolina, and the girls always loved it when we visited. Of course, I live about 10 miles from where my wife was born and grew up. </font>[/QUOTE]If you ever make it back, I'll buy you some Dreamland Ribs.

 

[Claudia_T]

I think that the Media CAUSES Americans to be divided. Especially when I watch CNN ... it seems like every single chance they get, they show something bad happening in Iraq and then they play it to the hilt. Every chance they get they insinuate bad things about the President.

The Media along with groups like moveon.org is what is causing America to be divided, in my opinion.

Then what gets me is that the Media sits there and asks innocently if we think the United States is divided, they also ask people to come on their shows and ask WHY they think we are divided, etc.

If they would stop instigating it, that would go a long way towards helping.


-------------

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

 

[Claudia_T]

Mt:10:35:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

It is impossible for anyone to become a true follower of Jesus Christ without distinguishing himself from the worldly mass of unbelievers. If the world would accept of Jesus, then there would be no sword of dissension; for all would be disciples of Christ and in fellowship one with another, and their unity would be unbroken. But this is not the case. Here and there an individual member of a family is true to the convictions of his conscience, and is compelled to stand alone. . . . The line of demarcation is made distinct. One stands upon the Word of God, the others upon the traditions and sayings of men. . . .

Even though Jesus is the Prince of Peace He brings division. Being a Christian, I would be more worried if I were at unity with the world than suffering a division.

 

[Enoch]

I just do not see unity happening. There are too many moral issues that neither side is willing to compromise on, and I personally feel we should not compromise. The left is full of too much hate to see past their own selfish agenda.

 

[Norm]

Originally posted by Enoch:
I just do not see unity happening. There are too many moral issues that neither side is willing to compromise on, and I personally feel we should not compromise. The left is full of too much hate to see past their own selfish agenda.

Do these comments by conservative BaptistBoard notables also serve to make your point?

Was listening to Dan Blather ....

... Anyway, for those who don't know, Lolley was the former president of Southeastern when it was in the grips of ignorance and liberalism, but I repeat myself. He is scum.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Enoch:
The left is full of too much hate to see past their own selfish agenda.

The Left is full of hate?
Perhaps you should listen to Rush Limbaugh, Neil Boortz, Michael Savage, or Sean Hannity on the radio.
Tune in Hannity & Colmes any night on the Fox News Channel. Pay special attention to each host, and I want you to tell us who becomes more animated, and who is more gracious to their guests. Perhaps you will be fortunate enough to catch Ann Coulter as a guest, or even Oliver North.

 

[The Galatian]

That's love, neocon style.

 

[av1611jim]

Is our country divided?
Yes. Always has been. To prove it, all one has to do is to point out that we have always had a multi-party political system of government. Dems-reps, whigs, etc. etc. etc.
These parties have always been divided on ideologies. While both sides loudly proclaiming they are correct.
The only difference today is the overwhelming speed with which we can disseminate information.
If you want to idolize the founding fathers, you must remember that there was very heated debate while making the Declaration of Independence. We almost didn't have a Bill of Rights. The Constitution almost didn't happen. These are facts of history.
Yes Jesus is coming soon. The comment concerning the imminenet return of Him was accurate. According to Scripture, things must get worse. "This know also that in the last days perilous times..." We are seeing it on a worldwide scale now more than any other time in history. The arguement that this could have been true in colonial times is inaccurate.
In His service;
Jim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by john6:63:
The media would led us to beLIEve that ours is a country divided...

Looks to me like Bush dosen't need to make any concessions. From the looks of this county by county map, I'd say Bush is free to go foward with his agenda.

Source

This leads me to two different thoughts that I think deserve a thread all of its own.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by john6:63:
...
Looks to me like Bush dosen't need to make any concessions. From the looks of this county by county map, I'd say Bush is free to go foward with his agenda.

...

The functions and powers of the Presidency are set forth in the US constitution, not the vote totals. If we could get back to following the Constitution, I think all sides would be happier.

 

[williemakeit]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by williemakeit:

I am trying to get your gist here.

Willie, the only point of disagreement that I am chasing is your conclusion that the Bible teaches that, today, in 2004, it is inevitable that things have to go downhill.

They could; Jesus could return in 2005, or tomorrow. But, if he tarries for, say, 200 years, there are generations left who could build a very godly society in the meantime.

I'm not singling you out, I have heard the "things have to get worse" argument from many, and actually used to believe it myself. But I don't think it's biblical. </font>[/QUOTE]OK. I see your point, now, and I agree with it 100%. No, the bible does not indicate in any way that Jesus will return in 2004, and for the most part, some in every generation over the past 200+ years have probably believe that Jesus' return is imminent due to degradation of society. In my original post, I also indicated that there is always the possibility of a Spiritual Awakening in this country, and it is possible that we will see a reverse in a trend set in motion during the 60s. I do not recall the source, but I once read/heard an interesting statistic a few years back. It basically stated that more people are getting saved throughout the world in a single day now, than in all of 1901. God is still working today; however, according to my Bible study, I do believe that there will be some indication (primarily erosion of values and a falling away from sound doctrine) of the end times. As with previous generations, I believe that we are living in those times. I have argued the point on this with many that state that due to a decrease in diseases, people living longer, etc., that these days can in no way be interpreted as being worse than it was 200 years ago. I do not agree. For starters, a nation that legally kills 1.4 million unborn annually cannot be commended as being a Christian nation. There are other illustrations, but I know that you get my point. Personally, I do not want to live to be 100 years old in a nation where a spiritual darkness is spreading, and that the darkness is often confused with light (i.e., the ordination of queers).

 

[williemakeit]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by williemakeit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Willie, please follow my point here.

I thought talking down to other posters was against the rules. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think he is. I have friends in Pennsylvania, and yankees just express themselves differently.

Every since they were old enough to talk, the girls have wanted me to move back to the South (they were born in Maryland). My family is in North Carolina, and the girls always loved it when we visited. Of course, I live about 10 miles from where my wife was born and grew up. </font>[/QUOTE]If you ever make it back, I'll buy you some Dreamland Ribs. </font>[/QUOTE]Although they are a chain, I really like the Texas Roadhouse ribs. At least at the one here, they are the best ribs that I have tasted. Of course, I have never had the Dreamland Ribs, but in my travels, I am always looking for good ribs.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Thanks for the response, Willie. I pretty much agree, although the comparative evil of different eras is another whole topic, I think.

Originally posted by williemakeit:
Personally, I do not want to live to be 100 years old in a nation where a spiritual darkness is spreading, and that the darkness is often confused with light (i.e., the ordination of queers).

Me neither. I'd rather spread the gospel, and see culture to be in conformance with Godly principles. Let's all get to it.