I am on holiday this week with limited internet availability, so detailed posts will have to wait. But I notice that you did not mention any of the Bible texts that I added. But is God sovereign or is He not? Is He in charge of events or has He passed His rule over to mankind and Satan? Does He know the end from the beginning as He claims in Isaiah and is it true that, 'Our God reigns in the heavens; He does whatever pleases Him' (Psalms 115:3) or is it not. And the Bible is, at the same time, clear that God is not the author of evil. So do we believe God when He says these things, or do we accept your poor, fallen human logic that this is impossible?
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Is Paul Washer a Calvinist?
- Thread starter thomas15
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Martin, having read through the verses you listed I find that you are still trying to justify the unbiblical Calvinist view that is supported in both WCF & LBCF, meticulous divine determinism.
For some reason you refuse to see the clear text the says “God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity...all things, whatsoever comes to pass;”. As long as you hold to the unbiblical idea you will not be able to deal with the major problem that is found in Calvinism.
The reason the I am so hard on you about the WCF & LBCF making God the author of sin is because that is what some of Calvinisms’ most prominent preachers teach. This comes about because they are just following the text and Calvinists equate sovereignty with total control. As in control all things.
Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins?
Yes. {John Piper}
Has God Predetermined Every Tiny Detail In the Universe, Including Sin?
Gods’ sovereignty I do not question, what I question is the unbiblical Calvinist definition of sovereign. God has a plan and that plan is to make salvation available to all men not just a limited few as per Calvinism.
“Is He in charge of events or has He passed His rule over to mankind and Satan?”
Martin allowing man to have free will does not equate to God not being in charge/sovereign. But being in charge does not equate to the Calvinist meticulous determinism. That is a point that you have not been able to grasp.
Does He know the end from the beginning as He claims in Isaiah and is it true that, 'Our God reigns in the heavens; He does whatever pleases Him' (Psalms 115:3) or is it not.”
As I said before God has a plan for the salvation of all mankind. That plan was implemented through Jesus the Christ and as such salvation is available to all through faith in Him. Also where would get the idea that I think God is limited in what He can do? Calvinists are the ones that want to limit God. You say that He can not allow man to have a free will so I ask “who are you Calvinists to question God”
And the Bible is, at the same time, clear that God is not the author of evil.
Martin I have been trying to tell you this all along. God is not the author of sin, it is just the WCF * LBCF that insist on making God the author of sin. Take off your Calvinist glasses and read the text. When they have to add “yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin” then it shows that they realized that “God hath decreed in himself... freely and unchangeably, all things” has made God the author of sin because sin is included in “all things”.
As I have said before in various ways it is not my poor, fallen human logic that is flawed. The flaw lays at the feet of those that follow Calvin the WCF & LBCF. Calvinists are more concerned about protecting this flawed theology than they are about upholding the character of God.
Have a quiet and safe holiday
I don't refuse to see it; I believe this absolutely, but nonetheless, God is not the author of sin. I understand that you have problems with this, but nonetheless, that is what the Bible teaches, so both you and I need to accept it. God cannot be a little bit sovereign, or even quite a lot sovereign; He either is or He isn't.
BTW, I have never said that Man does not have a free will. What I have said is that Man always freely wills to sin (John 3:19 etc.) and is entirely unable to please God (Romans 8:5-8) unless God gives him a new heart and a new spirit, when he freely wills to follow Christ (Psalms 110:3).
I will do a longer post on this when I get back from holiday.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Martin I agree that God is not the author of sin. It is just the theology behind the WCF & LBCF {Calvinism} that by their words portray God as the author of sin. Your the one that accepts and supports "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass". My question for you is how can you not see these words making God the only effective agent. Your Calvinist view says that in order for God to be sovereign He has to control all things. But then you say well not all things just some things because we now have to protect Him from the logical outcome of our words. Wow what a mess you get yourself into.
BTW you do not have to say those words, your Calvinist theology says them for you. Curious thou you say "Man always freely wills to sin" Jn 3:19 but if you look just two verses later we see this "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." Jn 3:21. So it looks like man can do good deeds or is Jesus the Christ wrong? Calvinism insists that man can not come to God via a free will choice. But the bible says different {Act 16:31; Rom 10:13-15} and that is what the bible expects and shows. {Jn 6:40; 1Ti 2:3-4}. Jesus the Christ said He would draw all people to Himself {Jn 12:32} do you question what He said. Jesus the Christ called Himself "the resurrection and the life" {Jn 11:25-26} our salvation is based upon IF we believe. I will let Jesus the Christ ask the question "Do you believe this?"
Calvinists love to hang their hat on the phrase "unless God gives him a new heart and a new spirit" but that is not what the text says is it. "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? {Eze 18:31}. Verse 31 appeals directly to the whole house of Israel to cast away, all transgression of His laws. This is a national call to repentance and to a renewed mind, spirit, heart or attitude concerning God and righteousness. I agree that only God can give a person a new heart and spirit but this is in response to faith not the cause of it as Calvinists would have. We see this also in {Eze 36:26}. God wants to save His creation but it is always in response to faith, a turning away from sin.
Martin it is doubtful that you will ever change your mind about your cherished LBCF and Calvinism but I can always hope.
I can say for myself I will not change my mind about the way of salvation through faith in Jesus the Christ. Having said that I will admit I do enjoy the back and forth. We agree on much more than we disagree upon.We are after all brothers in Christ.
Silverhair,
Your carnal reasoning shows in this question..
To suggest that Christ could be "less than honest" is profane.No reformed person would even consider this.
Your carnal reasoning shows in this question..
To suggest that Christ could be "less than honest" is profane.No reformed person would even consider this.
You know better what Jesus should have said?
The two are congruous in Reformed theology, it's that people get so upset with God's sovereign election they cannot comprehend that the cause brings about an effect. Those chose unto redemption will repent and believe. It is the effect of God's election.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So that is interesting your saying that for the Calvinist you have to be saved before you can believe. Your problem is that the bible does not agree with you.
Again, you don't grasp the fact that the person who believes was chosen from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). Since this is true and it is also true that we were dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), it therefore is true that God must make us alive (Ephesians 2:4-5 [this is the cause]) so that we will believe through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9 [this is the effect]). By...grace...we are saved.
Silverhair, there is no problem. There is God's, straightforward, Word which tells us exactly what He has done and exactly how we respond to what He has done.
This truth is so clearly laid out that it perplexes me as to how you stumble over this truth. I encourage you to view your salvation from God's eyes rather than how you feel.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
And here in lay a problem that I see in Calvinism. Calvinists tend to leave out text that leads to the proper understanding of the text. Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world... As a bible believer I have no problem with this as God knows everyone that is going to freely chose to follow Christ Jesus.
And I even agree that we are spiritually dead in our sins, but that does not prevent man from responding to the gospel message. Paul, in the book of Romans laid out the steps toward salvation (Rom 10:13-15) and then condenses it to one line “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17) Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.
And yes I do agree our salvation is all of God, we can not save ourselves. Paul points this out in (Rom_5:1-2) it is our faith that gives us access to Gods' grace and you even agree with this “For by grace you have been saved through faith”. (Eph 2:8) Salvation is the gift of God we can not earn it. We are saved because we believe not so that we will believe. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,..." (Act 16:31)
And to quote you “This truth is so clearly laid out that it perplexes me as to how you stumble over this truth. I encourage you to view your salvation from God's eyes rather than how you feel.”
See the statement I bolded in your response. There is your false statement.
You attempt to show your assertion via Romans 10, yet you forget Jesus words that His sheep hear His voice and that all whom the Father gives Him are His sheep (see John 10). Therefore, Romans 10 is confirming Ephesians 1 and 2 as well as John 10 in that those the Father has chosen will hear the message of reconciliation and will believe.
You are stumbling because you are man-centered in your understanding of salvation and thus you cannot see the gracious work that God has done for those he has chosen to save.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin not to be harsh but you are most assuredly a deterministic Calvinist. As a result you have this convenient way of not seeing what is right in front of you.
Did Christ Jesus not say He would draw all people to Himself? (Joh_12:32) Did the Holy Spirit not come to convict the world? (Joh_16:8) Did Christ Jesus not come to save the world (Joh_3:17). Did God not say He desires all men to be saved (1Ti_2:3-4). Are we not told we can not earn our salvation we are to believe. (Act_10:43)
When I read the bible I see a God that loves His creation and longs to have a loving relationship with them. But for love to be real it has to be freely given. I believe the Bible when it says that Jesus's death was for all people and that anyone can come to Him. God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is faith in Christ Jesus that saves the sinner. (Act_10:43)
But Calvinists believe that God only loves a few specially-chosen people with a saving love and that Jesus only died for the sins of those few elected people. All of their "salvation security" rests on the hope that they are really one of the few, pre-chosen "elected" ones. That they were truly one of the few lucky winners picked during the "salvation lottery."
When you promote universalism (draw ALL people), how do you explain that not ALL people are drawn? Did Jesus lie? Or is the "all" referring to all that the Father has given to Jesus?
You consistently reject God as Supreme Lord and Ruler over all things while you openly lift up man on an equal pedestal with God. We will be at an impasse until you admit that man is beneath God and subject to God's will.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is the problem that all you Calvinists have, you have a problem reading english. What do you think Christ Jesus means by "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." (Joh 12:32) How do explain not all are drawn, it's called free will.
The real problem is that Calvinists can not accept the reality that God is Sovereign and that he can and does do all that He wants including giving man free will. My question for you is "who are you oh man to question what God can do?" Calvinists love to put God in a little box call determinism. That may work for you but I worship a God that shows His sovereignty through His love and that is the God of the bible.
I agree we are at an impasse until you admit that man is beneath God and subject to God's will.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me
that everyone who sees the Son
and believes in Him may have everlasting life.
He {Christ Jesus} had said that the Father had committed to him the protection of our salvation; and now he likewise describes the manner in which it is accomplished. The way to obtain salvation, therefore, is to obey the Gospel of Christ.
God has chosen/elected a people to himself from all nations, tribes and tongues as demonstrated in the Book of Revelation.
Never is free will connected with salvation in the Bible, thus you bring in a philosophy from outside of scripture.
Nowhere is free will expressed in the Bible regarding salvation. Therefore you introduce a foreign philosophy and complain that the Reformed don't believe in the Sovereignty of God. You have introduced a strawman.
You continue your strawman and imagine it comes from God. [emoji33]
Romans 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Once again, you have introduced a philosophy, promoted it as coming from God and now deny predestination, which is clearly expressed in Ephesians 1.
Yet, all that you have presented is based on a godless philosophy not expressed in the Bible. This should give you cause to examine if you are worshipping a god of your own creation rather than the God of the Bible. [emoji33]
I have always admitted that man is wretched and you find only corruption in man. Only in Christ can anyone stand before God. We are entirely held beneath the will of God almighty. How you ever twisted it into something other is beyond me
Amen.
Your last sentence is false. It is merit-based and graceless. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone. It is not merited as you just declared.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin it is true you and I will never agree so you stay with your Calvinism and I will stay with the bible.
Silverhair, you are being deceitful by implying I am not addressing the Bible and what it says.
You have stated the philosophy of free will, with zero biblical support, and you created an entire strawman argument that no one made. Finally, you presented a merit based salvation that has no biblical support.
We will not agree, but it is not because you present the Bible. It is precisely because your position was philosophical rather than biblical that we disagree.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin you espouse a philosophy of determinism. You may think that you are saved because in your mind God picked you out before the foundation of the world but you can never really be sure. You have to hope that your not going to wake up one day and realize that it was not true for you. You were just determined to think that way.
Determinism is your Achilles Heal. You think what you are holding to is something you know as true but you can never be sure that God has not just determined you to think that way and say those things. Even when you argue for your view it becomes a circular argument.
Here is a question for you. Have you ever used Pro 16.33 "The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD." as an argument to support your Calvinist view? Calvinists will use this verse to claim that God directs ever event in life. One problem though, most Calvinists do not believe that interpretation, How can they. You may ask why do I say that? Well look at your own life, do you cast lots over all your decisions? If not why not? Do you think you know better than God how your life should go? Just asking.
Here's what I hold to...
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
~ Romans 8:29-39
I note that you have no scripture to support your free will philosophy of salvation.
Humble Disciple
Active Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin as someone who believes what the bible says I have no problem with the text you copied. I believe the whole council of God, unlike some people.
For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!" Rom 10:13-15
If as Calvinists say they were already saved why did they have to call on the Lord to be saved?
So by Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.
A problem with determinism in general, given the Calvinist’s view that God determines everything that happens.
A determinist cannot live consistently as though everything he thinks and does is causally determined—especially his choice to believe that determinism is true! Thinking that you’re determined to believe that everything you believe is determined produces a kind of vertigo. Nobody can live as though all that he thinks and does is determined by causes outside himself. Even determinists recognize that they have to act “as if” they had free will and so weigh their options and decide on what course of action to take, even though at the end of the day they are determined to take the choices they do. Determinism is thus an unliveable view. W. L. Craig