Is pedophilia permissable?

[tyndale1946]

First of all James2 I also was molested when I was 10 by the babysitter and her boyfriend. They were going after my two brothers also who were younger but I wouldn't let them. You might say I was the sacrifical lamb as they left the others alone. Physical pain is nothing compared to mental pain and "I NEVER GOT OVER IT" and if it wasn't for my faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ no telling where I would be today.
That little sexual incident lead me to other things I won't get into here. Thank God I'm freed from all that now but I never got over it. Incidents like this have wrecked peoples lives and as the scriptures state your sins will find you out. The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation.
I'm happy for you that you could just sweep this under the rug and go on. If I was you I would get on my knees and thank the good Lord you were able to do that. I wasn't as fortunate as you and I wish today I could face those who used me for their sport.
I would like to tell them because of their evil basic instincts that they altered the life and love of an innocent little boy. I just now had to get up from my computer because I started break down and cry... You see it is still with me and is my constant companion. That is was abuse does to you plain and simple and I wish you could feel what I feel!... Good Lord I wish you could feel it! Then you would truely understand!
It alienated me from my Father and I couldn't tell him because of the threat to my life and don't you dare say it wasn't real. To a 10 year old its as real as the sunrise.
If these people say they were abused I believe them and to say they are in it just for the money that is between them and God. Why would anyone talk about being abused is beyond me.
Its time to quit talking and do something about these pedophiles who prey on innocent children. It not surprising to me that you said you enjoyed you experience with that older man and thought it was cool. Why has our culture become so desensitized to what is right and wrong? If it was wrong then it is wrong now, according to the scriptures.
My heart goes out to the Catholic people on this board who are trying to worship God in their own manner. I know by listening to some on the radio and tv that they are appauled by the actions of some of the priests that they trusted. We had one in San Diego that they are still looking for who worked with the volunteer police here. There are many allegations against this man from those he molested. Its not only the Catholics but all the church of God needs to clean house because if we don't then the Lord will.
I like to as the old axiom goes laugh in the face of adversity... Brother Clint made a comment that if he ever heard that his child was molested that the police better get to them before he does. If I ever catch one who has molested my son or daughter... "I WOULDN'T KILL HIM" ... I would just break out the old chopping block! I would Depedofile him!... Brother Glen

[ April 17, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by JAMES2:
Gina:
I knew that me stating my experiences would "tick" people off. But before you get hysterical read what I said. I was talking ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES AND HOW I REACTED TO IT. I know other people react differently.

But please, don't let all the pcyhobabblers influence your thinking. I will not agree about "fear" and "power" over someone is what keeps someone going back for more. After all, most of us have a brain and KNOW what is right or wrong. To keep going back time and time again, to me, is WITHOUT excuse!! Period!! THAT'S MY OPINION OF ALL THIS.

Especially this day and age. I don't buy it. You disagree with me. Fine. Disagree all you want. I am telling the TRUTH of what happened to me and how I handled it. If you think people should react by letting it ruin their lives, so be it. I think it is much better to thank God that nothing worse has happened, like I have stated. Go on with life. Keep on keeping on!! It does NO GOOD whatsoever, as they say, to cry over spilt milk.

And, Gina, I'm not saying other people don't react in a more negative way. I'm just saying to keep reinforcing them by encouraging them to feel "angry" or encourage them to feel like a "victim" etc. is NOT HELPING ANYONE! Maybe they are all those things. I'm saying it is much better to tell them to focus on Jesus Christ, and love, and peace, and kindness, and forgiveness, and GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES. If I'm wrong for this, so be it!!

Since I'm on this subject, I also think that people going to "therapy" for years and years "to get over their "victimhood and anger" and pay thousands of dollars to a psychologist is to cause the victim to become a victim again. To spend money with these modern day versions of witch doctors is one of the more blatant frauds of the 20th century. Psychology IS a fraud! The ideas that this fraud was founded on are so anit-christian, so worldly, so unscientific, so full of absolute nonsense, the profession should be banned from inflicting themselves on the public.

Along these lines I would suggest the book by David Hunt, on "The Seduction of Christianity." A very informative book, to say the least!!!!!
God Bless
James2

James2: Your experiences and how you related are definitely not what ticked me off. It is the mentality that a person cannot be continually abused without enjoying it, or that healing from it is the equivalent of getting over "spilled milk".
I do not consider it psychobabble to use the word victim, or abuser, or any other terms that call it what it is.
If a person is injured in a car accident, they need a physician, nurses, AND the support of others around them to heal. When you are injured emotionally, yes, God HAS to be the physician, but you still need the support of others around you. Two people can be in the same accident and suffer different consequences.
As far as continuing to go back, don't lump people all together in that they wanted to go back. Consider a child whose father is the perpetrator...and the child continues to return home after school every day. Is she now to blame? Or the child who HAS said something and wasn't believed or told it was a normal part of life, happens to many people, you'll live? There are SO many factors and possibilities that you don't seem to be considering in cases of repetetive abuse, unless I'm mistaken and you're simply considering the individual circumstances of what you believe has happened in this one case, and in your own.
Memory suppression also DOES happen. It's real. Granted, there are many false cases, and for the most part "commercial therapy" is a joke, but just because a person can't relate to the possibility of how others respond to a given situation doesn't make that response any less of a reality.
Yes, go on with life, but you don't have to walk around with raw emotional cuts anymore than you do physical ones.
Still disagree? That's your choice, but please do consider how your opinions and ideas will affect others. GET OVER IT and IF YOU KEPT GOING BACK IT'S YOUR FAULT are EXACTLY the reasons that people are sooooo afraid to come out about abuse in the first place.
*Sigh* Ok, I think I said enough, lol.

Gina

 

[donnA]

Abusing a child is never ok, and those who help cover it up are guilty also, of the same crime. Sex with a child is a crime in this country, and it needs to be reported to the authorities everytime it happens. They not only should be judged and found guilty and punished before God, and they will, but they need to be responsable to this country for their crimes against children, and recieve just punishment. But people hiding behind their religiopn are covering up and allowing children to be hurt. That is not godly, it is not biblical, no amount of excuse works on this one.
What does the bible say about those who hurt children? Who turn them against God because of what they've done? Criminals who continuelly abuse a child need to be in prison, if it were anyone else but a priest they'd be in prison a long time.

 

[tyndale1946]

Katie I'm glad you said that the people who do these things to children should be in prison. I also would like to add to the prison popualtion this is the most unpardonable sin imaginable. If you murder someone prisoners will accept you and you are part of the group. Any crime you commit you are part of the group except child molestation and killers. Prisoners hate child molesters and killers as many of them have families and kids of their own.
That is why in the prison popualtion they keep these men separate from the others. If they didn't keep these child molesters and killers separate the other prisoners would enact their own justice.
Gina I appreciate what you had to say and can only say to those who say get over it. You have no right to say that until and only until you've walked in my shoes!... By the grace of God go I... Brother Glen

 

[Gina B]

Ha!"In My Shoes" was the original title of the book I started on the matter!
I just came up with a different one last week, but still haven't decided for sure.
Gina

 

[donnA]

Thanks Glen,
yes we do have some experience with jails, and maybe in the future prison itsself. In county jails sex offernders are in a cell of just sex offernders. Those men in ther may be law breakers, and some hardned criminal, but they hate a child molester. My son when in the same van being transported to another county was with two sex offernders, they know because the cell number, and he wouldn't even talk to them, said he didn't like sex offenders. That is like the ultimate no-no even to other prisoners. I heard of some of the things they are saying in there about these child molestation cases.

 

[donnA]

Fear is a very powerful thing when it comes to children. And even more so when it's someone they are supose to be able to trust.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

...an honest assessment of the facts related to these charges do not add up to a cover up.

I beg to differ and so does every newspaper in the country today! Here's a few links:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020417/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_law_2

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-042702law.story

http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/bal-te.md.keeler17apr17.story?coll=bal%2Dlocal%2Dheadlines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1934000/1934391.stm

Here's the Yahoo newsgroup search so you can see for yourself. It was WAY too much for me to look at all of them:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Catholic_Church_Abuse_Scandal/

It's also interesting that all of the Catholics who have spoken on this thread do not hold with 70% of their fellow Catholics according to this poll saying that Law's resignation should have been accepted:

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/107/metro/Most_Catholics_in_poll_want_a_resignation+.shtml

And just in case anyone thinks this is just an American problem, try this one:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/06/14/world/main296544.shtml

Sure, T2U, you may come up with some links of Baptist ministers committing these horrid acts. There may even be a few that duped another congregation into hiring them without actually being repentant, but I'll match every link you can provide with one where a Baptist minister in the same situation was fired, arrested, prosecuted and never allowed to preach in a Baptist church again! We answer to God not to men just as we are instructed in Acts 5:29. It seems that many of the Catholic faith would follow the diocese and pope right over a cliff!

As for infallibility having nothing to do with this, if this action of not accepting a resignation from Laws does not send a green light to pedophiles who follow the Catholic faith, I don't know what would!

 

[JAMES2]

Tom Cassidy, Gina, Brother Glenn, and others:
Tom thanks for seeing what i am trying to say. I thought it needed to be said. There are people out there thinking they should feel guilty because they do not feel guilty. I for one understand that and wanted to tell the "other side of the story."

Brother Glenn: I'm sorry that you reacted the way you did. That was not my intention for finally bringing this up. Through the years I've read how horrible all this stuff and how it completely wrecks a person's life. Well, that is simply not true. Some people yes. Some people, and I suspect MOST people, NO!!!

Circumstances are different and I'm not trying to cover all things that have occurred for all time.

The truth is, I do thank God that I was able to dismiss it as nothing, then move on. Later I did realize that it was a sin against God, and I sincerely repented for that. Oh, God's forgiveness. How wonderful. That's all I needed.

So I have the mentality of "get over it" and move on!! Well, ok. That's what I think is the best thing that a person can do. There are so many more HORRIBLE things that can happen to a 10 year old than to be introducted to sex. I know that is hard for people to accept, but I truly believe that. For me, it was nothing I really even thought about much. I've pretty much covered what I think, and I really do hope that some out there may be helped to go on with their lives.
Sincerely,
James2

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother Clint said:

Baptist minister in the same situation was fired, arrested, prosecuted and never allowed to preach in a Baptist church again! We answer to God not to men just as we are instructed in Acts 5:29.

You talk about accountability the churches I'm associated with do not put up with any of this. Sin is sin pure and simple and just because a person is one of the cloth does not excuse them... Just the opposite they are suppose to be the examples to the flock. We should follow them as they follow Christ and when they cease to the scriptures say to mark that man!... Brother Glen

 

[cor_unam]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:

It's also interesting that all of the Catholics who have spoken on this thread do not hold with 70% of their fellow Catholics according to this poll saying that Law's resignation should have been accepted:

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/107/metro/Most_Catholics_in_poll_want_a_resignat ion+.shtml

And just in case anyone thinks this is just an American problem, try this one:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/06/14/world/main296544.shtml

As for infallibility having nothing to do with this, if this action of not accepting a resignation from Laws does not send a green light to pedophiles who follow the Catholic faith, I don't know what would!

3 counter-points Clint:

1- I never (as one of "all the Catholics on the board) said how I felt about Law's resignation. Also, that 70% you talk about are only Catholics in the Boston Archdiocese... that's hardly an accurate representation of all Catholics feelings. Also I'm unclear as to where you're getting this "resignation accepted" thing. He didn't apply to resign and it was rejected. He simply went to discuss the issue with the pope.

2- It is MOSTLY an American problem yes (for crying out loud look at the degradation of our whole society... that's bound to affect the churches) ... that is very clear... your one example doesn't condemn the worldwide Church.

3- "As for infallibility having nothing to do with it..." it still doesn't. What you are talking about is unrelated. Look again at what the definition and boundaries of papal infallibility are.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

1. Here's a national poll by ABC news. Even nationally, the numbers speak loudly of disapproval: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/churchsex_poll020221.html

Of course, IMO, I expect you are wise enough to know that the man should be excommunicated.

2. According to your very own pope, it IS a world wide problem: http://archive.showmenews.com/2002/Feb/20020223Feat004.asp

3.

The fact that the POPE in union with the MAGESTERIUM can not make an erroneous statement regarding FAITH and MORALS when SPEAKING FROM THE CHAIR OF PETER with the intent to INSTRUCT THE PEOPLE is completely irrelevant here.

You really need to examine this statement. Do you truly not feel that a statement has been made by the vatican on morals???

 

[LaRae]

Clint,

Excommunicated? On what grounds? While I personally think Law should resign ........but excommunicate?

I don't think you fully understand what grounds are needed to excommunicate someone....furthermore....we are supposed to forgive people from their sins and go on.....do non-catholic churches turn their back on the sinners of their congregations?

LaRae

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Excommunication according to 1Corinthians 5: 1-13

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.
2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?
3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?
7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Of course there's probaby some canon or council or such that differs from scripture but that is the Apostle Paul's instructions.

Forgiveness comes with repentance and confession. We have not seen that from Law's.

 

[trying2understand]

Clint, in typical Baptist tradition (in my opinion) you have rearranged a few things to fit your opinion.

Please tell me how many charges of abuse have been filed against Cardinal Law?

None? But you have made post after post calling for his head as though he is guilty of abuse himself. Now what is this? Guilt by association? Sloppy wording on your part? An intentional linking of words in a manner meant to deceive?

You have called for Cardinal Law's excommunication based on Scripture. Now explain to me how the verses you cited apply to him?

While you're at it, see if there are any verses talking about judging others.

 

[Helen]

It is MOSTLY an American problem yes (for crying out loud look at the degradation of our whole society... that's
bound to affect the churches) ... that is very clear... your one example doesn't condemn the worldwide Church.

This is wrong. As I stated in my post this morning, reading papers in other countries indicates this is a world-wide problem for the Catholic church. Consider, however, that in most countries there is no separation of church and state and press and the Catholics are in much more control of what gets publicized in countries where they are the majority and therefore exert control over the press to varying degrees. I would not expect to hear about this problem there!

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Well I posted a comment about adult abuse of children about 3 am this morning in the women's only forum. I will tell you I was surprised to see someone else was talking about sexual abuse on the very day I talked about it. IT IS NOT OKAY and personally, I will never forget what my relative did to me and a cousin when I was 10 and she was 9 years old. I DIDN'T LIKE any of it and I HATED HIM for a long time. Only through God's grace did I learn to forgive my uncle but guess what, I'LL NEVER FORGET WHAT HAPPENED!!!

I NEVER TOLD my parents until my "predator" and my aunt had died. Why, you ask? I knew if I told my parents that my mom would tell her sister about her husband. I didn't want to hurt my aunt because it wasn't her fault and I knew it was devastate her if I told her what had happened to us.She was a Godly woman and she was very faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ.I always will remember what happened and it is something I will carry with me to my grave.You know whats sad, is there are more people out there like my uncle hurting children's minds, bodies, and spirit (soul). I am 45 years old now and yet, I can remember that night almost 35 years ago as if it happened yesterday.

People handle their sorrows and troubles in different ways. I learned to go on and I try to use my past experience to comfort those out there like myself. I have had people tell me you don't understand how I feel,when talking about their abuse experiences. I then tell them unfortunately, I know all too well their sorrow and grief. at that point,I then tell them my story about abuse at the hands of a relative.

My cousin that was also abused with me that night so long ago, I feel like has never overcome her traumatization. She became a "crack" addict and later had two children out of wedlock. Furthermore, she has lived with many different men and for months at a time, she'd just vanish and her parents did not know where she was.

I am not saying that what happened to us caused her to turn to drugs but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if drugs weren't her crutch to make her forget!I can remember her having a seance' at her home, when we were about 12 years old ,and I was scared to death of what I saw occurring. We use to be very close and we were inseparable in the summertime. However, she started doing things I knew was wrong but I truly believe she couldn't handle the memory we have inbedded in our souls.

James2 maybe you handled it by THINKING YOU ENJOYED IT but I personally, can't believe that you did. I know I couldn't have prevented the abuse but for years I blamed myself for what happened. It's crazy but true that a victim will blame themselves often times for things they had no control over. I hated that it happened to me and I HATED being a girl because I thought if only I'd had been a boy, he wouldn't have bothered me.

You know something else, I must admit it that I was GLAD when my uncle had a heart attack and died. Isn't that a terible thing to say? I forgave him but truthfully, I couldn't finally forgive him until he no longer was on this earth.I was always afraid of him after what he had done to us. I would pitch a fit when my parents wanted us to go visit them. I'd beg my mother to let me stay at other relatives homes, to no avail. However,I'd refuse to hug or kiss him like I'd hug and kiss all my other relatives.

Finally, after both my uncle and aunt were dead, I told my parents what had happened to me. We all shed a lot of tears and they wanted to know why I had kept my secret all those years. I did it for my aunt because if it weren't for the love I had for her, I'd have LOVED to seen him locked up in prison. I had two children of my own when my uncle died. I never let my children out of my sight around him though. I knew he hadn't changed his ways or at least my heart told me that!

This is a word to all you parents out there...please watch the body language of your children. They may be trying to tell you something by their actions if not by their words.God heals all things but that doesn't mean there aren't plently of us walking wounded out there.

 

[cor_unam]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
3. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The fact that the POPE in union with the MAGESTERIUM can not make an erroneous statement regarding FAITH and MORALS when SPEAKING FROM THE CHAIR OF PETER with the intent to INSTRUCT THE PEOPLE is completely irrelevant here.

You really need to examine this statement. Do you truly not feel that a statement has been made by the vatican on morals???[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Clint: Please clarify your question, I don't understand what you're getting at... thanks.

p.s. What does IMO mean?

 

[LaRae]

Clint,

Aside from the fact that Cardinal Law hasn't been accused of any sexual crime..no idea how you plan to use Corinthians to excommunicate him

You are going to tell me that non-Catholic churches excommunicate the members of their congregations who comit adultry....of course you have no idea who is committing adultry....but those you do know about.....you just boot them out?

LaRae

 

[Clint Kritzer]

cor-unam -

Clint: Please clarify your question, I don't understand what you're getting at... thanks.

Say your sitting around watching a baseball game and a wild pitch hits the batter. The whole team runs out on to the field as the opposing team runs out and it turns into a brawl between grown men whom the kids idolize. Then I turn to you and say, "Now what kind of message is that giving the kids who watch this?" That's a quick anology off the top of my head.

What does IMO mean?

Internet speak for "In my opinion." This thread may interest you: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000439&p=

T2U -

Clint, in typical Baptist tradition (in my opinion) you have rearranged a few things to fit your opinion.

Hmmmmmmm, glad I've never witnessed you doing that, Ron.

Please tell me how many charges of abuse have been filed against Cardinal Law?

None? But you have made post after post calling for his head as though he is guilty of abuse himself. Now what is this? Guilt by association? Sloppy wording on your part? An intentional linking of words in a manner meant to deceive?

Even though the Catholic church has completely anulled the teachings of the scriptures on church leadership, hereis what the Bible has to say on the subject of an elder (priest for you) says:

1 Timothy 5
19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

While you're at it, see if there are any verses talking about judging others.

See above reference to 1 Corinthians.

LaRae -

You are going to tell me that non-Catholic churches excommunicate the members of their congregations who comit adultry....of course you have no idea who is committing adultry....but those you do know about.....you just boot them out?

Yes, church discipline exist in the Baptist church. Some of the older folks call it "churching" as in "my grandma got churched for dancing in the parking lot."