Is pedophilia permissable?

[cor_unam]

Jason, DHK, and Clint:
Maybe your'e not seeing the point. I for one, nor do I suspect the other Catholics on this board, am not trying to defend this "abomination." I think it is as disgusting and unsettling as the rest of the world. What I (we?) are trying to accomplish is simply a fair assesment of the problem. Everyone here is like a lynching mob just waiting to attack the Church. It really hurts to see such unchristian judgements and arguments thrown around. All I have been trying to do is get people to look at this fairly and in perspective... yet I get accused of "blindly following the pope of a cliff" and of defending sin. It's very sad and disheartening how misconceptions and misrepresentations continue to be perpetuated on this board. May God have mercy on us all...

[ April 18, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: cor_unam ]

 

[Clint Kritzer]

What I (we?) are trying to accomplish is simply a fair assesment of the problem.

Perhaps it would be of benefit if you defined exactly what you feel "the problem" is.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

By the way, cor_unam, you haven't been here long enough for us to make any evaluation on your personal theology so my remark about following the pope over a cliff was not necessarily directed at you. I think if you follow this forum long enough, you will see that there are some Catholics here that are not interested in learning anything about what the scriptures say, but would rather just make jabs where they see an opportunity and especially at individuals with whom they have had previous disagreements. For instance, look at how much scripture and even Catholic text has been used by the Baptist side, yet the Catholics don't even seem to want to acknowledge their own dictionary's definition of excommunication, much less try to find any commentary on the scriptures used here that may support their position.

But don't worry, if we see you heading toward a cliff, we'll let you know.

May God bless you

- Clint

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Leviticus 19
17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

Job 11:3
Will your idle talk reduce men to silence? Will no one rebuke you when you mock?

Proverbs 9:8
Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Proverbs 17:10
A rebuke impresses a man of discernment more than a hundred lashes a fool.

Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

Getting the idea?

 

[cor_unam]

Clint,
Thanks for clarifying.

I see the problem as this:

Sex abuse occured, proper steps were not taken to make sure it wouldn't happen again. What needs to be done to make sure this doesn't happen again and to regain the confidence of the lay people in their leaders?

That's the crux of it.

 

[GraceSaves]

Clint,

You continue to pummel me with your unChrist like words. I don't study Scripture? You say so? How do you know?

DHK,

I support the burning of heretics? I support the burning of Bibles? Do I worship Satan as well? Was that next on your accusation list?

Clint,

You're right; us dirty Catholics don't deserve a fair trial. Whatever the media spreads and the nation feels to be true, you know, that's enough justice for us. I'm sure every accusation is wholly true...I mean, look at all the evidence in these news stories! It's monumentous!

And thanks for your prejudice against an entire religion over the sins of a few.

Thanks for treating me like I'm lower than you.

Thanks for saying everything except that I'm not really Christian...or was that next on your list?

Jesus is not present in this thread.

 

[Walguy]

It seems to me that the issue is: at what point does a person in a leadership role in a Christian denomination become unfit for that job? If a Cardinal shot another man in the groin for making a pass at his niece, I have a feeling very few Catholics would suggest that this is a person who should remain in that position of authority. To me, learning that a priest in one of your parishes has been credibly accused of sexual abuse, and responding by simply moving that priest to another Church where he has a whole new group of unsuspecting victims to prey on, is a far worse offense than that. And I mean doing it JUST ONCE is a far worse offense. Shuttling many perverts from parish to parish over and over puts such a person at least on the same subterranean level as a human being as the molesters themselves. To my mind such a person belongs in prison, and the fact that a fair number of Catholics apparently don't even think a person like that should be removed from his job is just shocking.
Of course, I think that protecting kids from abuse and exploitation is more important than trying to protect the image of a denomination. Poor old unenlightened me, huh?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:

DHK,
I support the burning of heretics? I support the burning of Bibles? Do I worship Satan as well? Was that next on your accusation list?

If you did not support these past actions of the Church, then that is good. But there are Catholics that I can name, that have posted on this board who have clearly defended the actions of the Catholic Church in the burning of Bible-believing "heretics," and the burning of Bibles. I did not single you out.
DHK

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
[QB]Clint......You continue to pummel me with your unChrist like words....... QB]

Posted by Clint: Leviticus 19
17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

Job 11:3
Will your idle talk reduce men to silence? Will no one rebuke you when you mock?

Proverbs 9:8
Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Proverbs 17:10
A rebuke impresses a man of discernment more than a hundred lashes a fool.

Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
.......

KNOCK IT OFF CLINT! LOL! Sorry, but that was irresistable.
Gina

 

[donnA]

It appears some on here are condoning child sexual abuse.

There is a difference between commiting a sin once, and lifing in sin, making a pratice of that one sin. Such as sexually abusing a child, over and over, even if it's different child each time, thats the pratice of sin. Sexually abusing children for 40 years(recently saw this about one priest, didn't pay attention to his name), is not one of the fruit of the Spirit. Once is horrorable enough, but to keep on doing it???????!!!! of course they should be thrown out of the church. That shouldn't even be in question. Neither should the legal obligations.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by cor_unam:
Jason, DHK, and Clint:
Maybe your'e not seeing the point. I for one, nor do I suspect the other Catholics on this board, am not trying to defend this "abomination." I think it is as disgusting and unsettling as the rest of the world. What I (we?) are trying to accomplish is simply a fair assesment of the problem.

Here is an assesment of the problem. The bishop has committed a heinous crime for which others would go to jail for. The pope has called for his cardinals and bishops to see what can be done about the scandal. The church is losing both face and money. Rather than deal with the problem that the church actually faces (i.e. sexual abuse and pedophilia), the church is rather dealing with its own image.

Here is what should have been done. Once an accusation of such impropriety has been made, it needs to be verified, by one or two witnesses, that in the mouth of one or two witnesses every word may be established.
If the guilty one does not repent he needs to be brought before the church. If he does not acknowledge his guilt and crime, and repent in front of the church, the church is to treat him like a heathen and a publican, which means to excommunicate him. It means to have no fellowship with him whatsoever. The Jews would never enter the house of a heathen or publican, never eat with them, or speak with them. This was the parallel that Christ was drawing. Now look at the specific Scriptures that deal with this.

Mat.18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

It is not the courts that has the power to excommunicate, it is the church, the local church. But in the hierarchal system of the Catholic Church, which is an unbiblical system, this is an impossibility. The decision should have already been made by the church in Boston.
But their hands have been tied by the Catholic Church authorities.

Better to follow the Bible than an institution.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
In past threads I have noted that Catholic apologists have defended the Inquistion, the burning at the stake of Bible-believing "heretics," the burning of Bibles, and so it comes to me as no surprise that they would defend something so pervese and vile.
DHK

DHK, please direct me to any post in which any person, Catholic or otherwise, defended sexual sin on the part of the Catholic clergy.

What I am defending is the right of the accused to an assumption of innocence until proven guilty.

In my opinion and experience, it is the tradition of a certain brand of baptists to operate on the contrary assumption.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Here is an assesment of the problem. The bishop has committed a heinous crime for which others would go to jail for.
DHK

Which Bishop?
What crime?
Has he been charged?
Has he been convicted?

As I have said DHK, there is a "certain brand of baptist"...

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Here is an assesment of the problem. The bishop has committed a heinous crime for which others would go to jail for.
DHK

Which Bishop?
What crime?
Has he been charged?
Has he been convicted?

As I have said DHK, there is a "certain brand of baptist"...</font>[/QUOTE]The lawsuit names former Bishop Anthony O'Connell as an alleged child molester.

O'Connell resigned his post with the West Palm Beach Diocese in Florida after admitting he inappropriately touched a boy in the 1970s. More allegations of abuse have followed.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/18/priest.lawsuit/index.html

Do you want more? I can provide at least half a dozen more.

 

[donnA]

You're right; us dirty Catholics don't deserve a fair trial.

Thats part of the problem. They have evaded trial by hiding crimes.

DHK, please direct me to any post in which any person, Catholic or otherwise, defended sexual sin on the part of the Catholic clergy.

What I am defending is the right of the accused to an assumption of innocence until proven guilty

There again, thats the problem. How can this happen if they have been hiding, and helped by the church.
Let them face a court of law and find out if they are guilty.
Running and hiding always looks guilty.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

In my opinion and experience, it is the tradition of a certain brand of baptists to operate on the contrary assumption.

Priest convicted of molestation denies sex with minors
SANTA ROSA, California (CNN) -- A Catholic priest convicted of molesting a girl maintains he never had sexual relations with minors, but, describing himself as the "forbidden fruit," he admitted he had not remained celibate.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/17/priest.sex/index.html?related

The church has been rocked by revelations that some priests had sexually abused children and that various archdioceses had quietly settled scores of lawsuits over the years.
The meeting April 23 and 24 will involve 11 U.S. cardinals -- eight cardinals traveling from the United States and three already stationed in Rome.
They will meet with three non-U.S. cardinals who lead what are known as Vatican congregations dealing with matters of clergy, bishops and doctrine. There was no mention of a meeting with Pope John Paul II, but it is widely believed the cardinals will see him.

Cardinal Bernard Law, who is the target of persistent calls for his resignation, released a statement Tuesday evening revealing he has just returned from Rome where he met with the pontiff and other Vatican officials. Law said he returned encouraged in his decision to remain as the leader of the Boston archdiocese.
The scandal has mushroomed in Boston, where the archdiocese was recently forced by a court to turn over hundreds of pages of damaging internal documents. Some of them showed that church leaders -- including Law -- were aware of numerous allegations of abuse against one now-retired priest, Paul Shanley, who according to the documents had gone so far as to publicly defended sexual relationships between men and boys.

Shanley was moved from parish to parish in the Boston area, and church leaders vouched for his character when he was transferred to California.
Shanley, the subject of numerous lawsuits, has declined to comment. His case is one of several to rock that archdiocese, including the conviction earlier this year of defrocked priest John Geoghan, who was sent to prison for molesting a boy in 1991.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/16/vatican.cardinals/index.html?related

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A grand jury will investigate sexual abuse allegations against priests in the Diocese of Rockville Centre, Suffolk County District Attorney Thomas Spota said Thursday.
The grand jury, believed to be the first in the nation to examine the issue of molestation by priests in the Roman Catholic Church, will also investigate how the diocese handled claims of abuse.
This special grand jury, which differs from a regular grand jury in that it hears only one case, will investigate "the policies, procedures and manners in which the Diocese of Rockville Centre investigated these serious allegations, most of which appear to have been criminal in nature," Spota said.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/11/priest.abuse.grand.jury/index.html?related

Would you still like more evidence?
DHK

 

[Clint Kritzer]

GraceSaves -

I did not call ANY names. Perhaps you read with a certain amount of presupposition? I'll have to look around to see if you've ever quoted ANY scripture. Come to think of it, I don't remember you ever doing so. But just for the record, a public trial held by the state is totally irrelevant to a church excommunicating a member. If you can show me otherwise, then please post it here. If you can't do so, then don't call my posts unChristlike.

It seems to me that most of the excommunication stories I have heard are about embezzlement by a clergy or church employee.

Maybe if my statements bother you so badly, you should stop participating in any threads in which I am involved.

However, your goading me will not pull this topic off thread. Try again on another one. The facts remain what they are.

- Clint

 

[LadyEagle]

My 2 cents:

The Changing Face of the Priesthood, by Father Donald Cozzens, says an exodus of experienced priests from the church, many of them to marry, has drastically altered the gay-straight ratio. "At issue at the beginning of the 21st century is the growing perception that the priesthood is, or is becoming, a gay profession," Cozzens writes. "Heterosexual seminarians are made uncomfortable by the number of gays around them." Cozzens, a priest for 35 years, is head of St. Mary's Seminary in Cleveland, Ohio."

http://www.trosch.org/ant/gay_priests.html

Goodbye! Good Men...In this explosive new book, investigative reporter Michael S. Rose reveals how deliberate discrimination against traditional, or "orthodox," men has been effected by well placed ideologues who want to change the Catholic Church in America to suit their personal tastes and politics...

"Anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic, who wants to understand the causes of the current scandals in the church couldn't find a better explanation than that contained within the pages of Goodbye! Good Men."

http://www.goodbyegoodmen.com/

HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVIST OUTLINES GOALS OF HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT...by Michael Swift, "Gay Revolutionary" (from the Gay Community News, Feb. 15-21, 1987, reprinted from The Congressional Record)

"We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

http://www.ipocministries.org/the_true_gay_agenda.htm

Rich Sugg/The Star
The Rev. Dennis Rausch, a priest who has AIDS, celebrates Mass at St. Maurice Catholic Church in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. "You can survive as a priest with AIDS," Rausch says. "Your life hasn't ended." At left is Ron Gouthro, a deacon.
Catholic priests are dying of AIDS, often in silence Hundreds of Roman Catholic priests across the United States have died of AIDS-related illnesses, and hundreds more are living with HIV, the virus that causes the disease. It appears priests are dying of AIDS at a rate at least four times that of the general U.S. population. Priests speak out in national survey
Six of 10 Roman Catholic priests in The Kansas City Star's survey know at least one priest who died of an AIDS-related illness, and one-third know a priest currently living with AIDS.

http://www.kcstar.com/projects/priests/

 

[Alex]

It amazes me that just because we are in th 21st. century that somehow God's Word is different for us now as opposed to when it started. Many churches and Ministers are sadly falling into the " do anything" phrase that is becoming the front runner of our society. The Bible tells us what should happen to the rapists, murders, and yes GAYS and the rest of what I call Bibical rebellion.. Many are now calling everything a disease or some recently found condition(mainly the research clinics, etc.), are responsibal for this. In turn, these NEW discoveries give anyone a right to do anything they want because there is now an answer that wasn't in God's Word, but is "in between the lines" now.

For those who are messing around with young children, they should get the death penality, not a scolding. But the death penalty is another very BAD word now. This orginal post could be debated for years but the Word is what counts in the end.......meaning the judgement by God according to His Word!!

God Bless............Alex

 

[Helen]

Please consider this, Roman Catholics: if a man in one of our neighborhoods here in the United States is found guilty of molesting just one minor, it is a felony, and he goes to jail. He is then a convicted sex offender and must register as such in many states so that his neighbors will know and take appropriate cautions where their children are concerned. He may not be hired in any capacity which has to do with the care of minors.

This is what we have voted for in many cases.

Now consider the difference where the Roman Catholic Church is concerned: a man in a position of public trust and supposedly representing God Himself molests minors -- a number of them. When it becomes known, he is not turned over to legal authorities. He is not jailed. He is not registered as a sex offender so that parents can be cautious.

No. Instead he is quietly transferred to another district so that the reputation of the RC church will not be tarnished. More children are molested.

I think Jesus had something to say about that:
...whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned n the depths of the sea.

I think this would probably be applicable to everyone in authority who knew about the incident and could have done something to stop this person for good and did not do that. Including the Pope.

Suppose we did that with sex offenders outside your church. Consider that it would be then very possible that a Scout leader, a school janitor or teacher or even counselor, a policeman, or anyone whom children are taught to trust and obey could easily be a convicted sex offender and you would not know it.

I am reminded of something else Jesus said:
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. ...Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righeous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

This is the Roman Catholic Church, which prefers to look good rather than to be good. In the meantime it is not just one parish priest or one person in authority in the RC church, but many of them, all over the world, who are involved in the corruption and abuse of minors.

It is not that Christian churches do not have some ministers or others in authority who do not commit heinous crimes as well. But it is not the policy of any Christian church to cover up those crimes, but to expose them and remove the individual from his position of trust and authority, reporting him or her to the law. In sharp contrast, it is the POLICY of the Roman Catholic Church to cover up, hide, transfer -- and pretend to still be representing God Himself.

At the very least, that is pure blasphemy.