Is pedophilia permissable?

[Clint Kritzer]

Before this thread goes any further, I would like to thank the members who added their testimonies of being sexually abused as children. This took a great deal of courage and I appreciate your input.

May God bless you

- Clint

 

[JAMES2]

Well, here I go again!! I REALLY believe that ANY report of sex abuse that is more than a week old should be totally ignored as invalid.

Why? Because, contrary to what psychobabblers say, this absurd practice of saying "I was molested 30 years ago and I just now, after I see there is alot of money to be made,I just now REMEMBERED." I am only speaking for myself, but I do not find it credible that a person molested doesn't REMEMBER because he/she BLOCKS it out. Blocks it out of where? Excuse me, but doesn't remember? That is so absurd!!! It is time that this stuff is talked about in a rational way. Oh, I was DAMAGED for life. Pleasseee!!!!!!!

I know I am in the minority, but I can't stand to see the "feeding frenzy" that is going on. I mean, I speak from personal experience. Some will get really mad at me, and it is not my intention to make peolpe mad, but I've been there, had it happened to me.
I am speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF AND HOW I REACTED. If others reacted differently, I understand that.

But to automatically assume that because of a sexual experience as a child, that should or will damage you for life is extreme, to say the least. Some cases, sure. I suspect, in most cases, no!!

Maybe there can be a rational, more objective discussion of this whole subject. Or, maybe, everyone is already sick of the whole thing.

AS FOR ME, I remember every single detail, always have, never blocked anything out, never hated anyone for anything, never let it bother me and most certainly never let it effect me for the rest of my life.

Why do I feel this way? Because, through the years I have learned several things I think are important about this:
1. I, MYSELF, ME, -- I am not the measure of all things. What happened to me when I was 10-11 is not important. A person may think that what happened to them is SO important, but it isn't!
2. Why is that? Because NOTHING can separate me from the love of God -- not tribulation, distress, being molested at 10, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! I am a child of the KING, an adopted son of God, I have all spirutal blessings in heavenly places. Look forward, not backward. Live a Christ-centered life, not a self-centered life. I once was alot of things, suffered a lot of things, but no more or no less that most. But what IS IMPORTANT is that HE (the TRIUNE GOD) touched me and made me WHOLE!!! Praise God. It is not I that lives, but Christ lives in me. I glory in nothing but the cross. How can anything else have any importance?
James2

[ April 21, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

[JAMES2]

Gina:
I think you will understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to make light of anything. Just trying to show that this stuff doesn't have to destroy a person. What a Friend we have in Jesus!!!
James2

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "In the meantime it is not just one parish priest or one person in authority in the RC church, but many of them, all over the world, who are involved in the corruption and abuse of minors."

That's an interesting opinion, and I would probably not only believe it wholeheartedly, but spread it like a wildfire to mar the image of the Roman aberration that chains millions down all over the world in its sexual lust, powerful persecution, and rich pomp.

But, just FYI (in case you're open to listening to others' opinions), Pedophilia (the sexual abuse of a prepubescent child) among priests affects only 0.3% of the entire population of clergy. This figure, cited in the book Pedophiles and Priests by non-Catholic scholar Philip Jenkins, is from the most comprehensive study to date, which found that only one out of 2,252 priests considered over a 30-year period was afflicted with pedophilia.

"In the recent Boston scandal, only four of the more than 80 priests labeled by the media as 'pedophiles' are actually guilty of molesting young children.

"Pedophilia is a particular type of compulsive sexual disorder in which an adult (man or woman) abuses prepubescent children. The vast majority of the clerical sex-abuse scandals now coming to light do not involve pedophilia. Rather, they involve ephebophilia — homosexual attraction to adolescent boys. While the total number of sexual abusers in the priesthood is much higher than those guilty of pedophilia, it still amounts to less than 2 percent — comparable to the rate among married men (Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests).

"In the wake of the current crisis in the Church, other religious denominations and non-religious institutions have admitted to having similar problems with both pedophilia and ephebophilia among the ranks of their clergy. There's no evidence that Catholic prelates are more likely to be pedophiles than Protestant ministers, Jewish leaders, physicians, or any other institution in which adults are in a position of authority and power over children." - Deal W. Hudson

It's interesting that you brought up Jesus' Seven Woes to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23 in describing the "Roman Catholic Church, which prefers to look good rather than to be good."

By definition, the "Catholic Church" includes me. You can point to me and say, "There's the Roman Catholic Church" because I've received the three sacraments of initiation and I live by faith, hope, and love in keeping with the bishops united with the Holy Father, the successor of St. Peter.

I admit openly that I'm a sinful man in need of redemption, and that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is applied to me as I live the "life in the Spirit."

In addition to this, in every liturgy that the Church celebrates (which is every moment of every 24-hour period), all who participate in the worship service admit their sinfulness. The problem w/ the Pharisees in Jesus' day was that they wouldn't admit their sin because they kept the "works of the law", leaving them blameless (Read Paul's personal account in Phil 3:5). So, perhaps your blow is a little below the belt - maybe, out of place?

Have you been following my thread on divorce/remarriage? I noticed that you dropped off after a couple of short, pithy posts. Also, in your first marriage, was your husband baptized? I would say that if he was, then there's a good chance that you're in a situation that involves the sin of adultery. If he wasn't, then you're not, according to Scripture (specifically, St. Paul). I'd like your input on that thread.

Also, would you pray for my ministry this summer? You can see what I'm doing for Jesus by visiting this link: http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000838

God bless,

your sinner,

Carson

[ April 21, 2002, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Promise]

Carson you said:
By definition, the "Catholic Church" includes me. You can point to me and say, "There's the Roman Catholic Church" because I've received the three sacraments of initiation and I live by faith, hope, and love in keeping with the bishops united with the Holy Father, the successor of St. Peter.

Who is the Holy Father? There is only one Holy Father and that is God. If you are referring to the pope as I think you are then I think you had better read in Matthew just what Jesus said about who is to be called Father.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Promise,

In the same breath, Jesus says to call no one "teacher". Do you call those who instruct you your "teachers"?

Blasphemy!

What did St. Paul tell his spiritual children at Corinth? - "For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." (1 Cor 4:15)

Blasphemy!

All this blaspheming is making me tired. I think I'm going to go take a nap.

God bless,

Carson

[ April 21, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[tyndale1946]

James2 I disagree with you in this respect. Thirty years ago these things that happened to children did not exist in the minds of people. These things were just to horrid to even think of and there was no help because this didn't exist.
Why are people afraid to call something wrong when it is? Even though you thought the experience you had with the older man was cool he knew it was wrong palin and simple. Why are christians and I use christians because it seems the others don't care are afraid to call something SIN when it is. Just because you didn't know it was wrong doesn't make it right.
Why are christians afraid to clean house and make no mistake about it... If we fail to God will.
Gods people need to wake up and carry out justice and don't even say that is not our job because according to the bible it is. Judgement begins at the house of God and if we are going to follow God we need to also follow the teachings.
Some people have the idea that the Old Testament does not apply but I bare to differ because when Israel found sin in the camp the Lord told them to get rid of it or all of Israel would suffer.
Would someone give me a definition of what SIN is? Has SIN always been a SIN no matter what generation it is in or does the generation determine the SIN? One hundred years ago if you were caught stealing a horse or cattle you were hung. What do you think they would have done to you for having sex with a child? Drawn and quartered or maybe worse.
All you brethren know about western justice and I could go into the history of capital punishment but I won't there were worse things than hanging. My major in college was criminal justice and our professor asked us what would we use as a deterrent for crime... I said put a guillotine in the city square because to me that would deter anyone. I sure Brother Clint can give us some history of how our forefathers handled gross acts of sin in Virginia.
We are bombarded by the hellyvision daily trying to convince us that what was sin in the past is not no longer and we need to lighten up. That is the biggest bunch of you know what I've ever heard and if it wasn't for the prayers of the saints of God this country would have been given over to Satan along time ago.
Its time for us to get to these pedophiles and deal with this problem and all the other problems their kind bring. I don't see this a just a Catholic problem... It is right now but that is just the tip of the iceberg as there are many more devious things done in the dark known only to the perpentrators, the victims, and God. In Gods good time he will bring it to light and then see if his children are truely following him by dealing with these SINS in their midst... Brother Glen

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Carson,

As we have said before, nobody denies that sin occurs in every denomination. I have even been in Baptist churches where this exact same sin occured. The difference is that when the minister was discovered to have been involved with such horrid practice, he was immediately removed from his post of authority and turned over to the police. There was forgiveness. But there was also justice and steps taken to protect the children from having this happen again. When Cardinal Law discovered this, he did not remove the priest from his position of authority. He put him right back out there to do it somemore. He didn't turn that priest into the police. He covered up this crime by claiming confidentiality of the confession booth. And now he and the Pope propose to win back the trust of Catholics in Boston and worldwide public trust by putting Law back out there to fix the problem. But that is the rub. Bernard Law is the problem. He could have prevented a lot of this and he chose not to. If the Pope were really serious about fixing the problem, he would remove Law from his position. But the Pope isn't really serious.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Joseph,

I was hoping to dispel some of the myth of widespread universal priestly pedophilia. I absolutely acknowledge and admit that every man, no matter how holy or intelligent, is liable to make mistakes. This includes the 12 apostles. And, when such men make mistakes, I acknowledge and uphold the fact that they are not impeccable.

Considering the fact that we're dependent upon external appearances and much persuasive opinion as lemmings of the media, I also recognize that I am in no position to definitively determine the responsibility and detailed underpinnings of each decision particular pastors have made. So, I stray from the debate due to my position of real ignorance, which I think is very prudent.

God bless you,

Carson

 

[JAMES2]

Brother Glenn:
I said several times that what happened to me was a sin against God, and that when I realized that I was greived and asked for God's forgiveness. And, yes, I also sinned because I could have avoided everything but didn't. The law says a 10 year old can't consent. Whatever!!! I considered it a choice on my part and I felt like I sinned, and I did.
Also, I never said sin should not be confronted and called a sin. Of course it should. My problem is with all the hysteria about being damaged for life. Now, if a car runs me over I may well be damaged for life. I didn't feel like I was damaged at all as far as the incidents were concerned. I've come to realize over the years, like I stated in my last two posts, that the main thing is looking foward and realizing what a regenerated christian has, what blessings. My whole point for even mentioning this, since it is the first time I have really talked much about it, was so that others in MY situation could see that they were not alone and you don't have to crawl around on hands and knees and whip yourself to a bloody pulp because you don't feel "guilty" and "angry" and "devastated" and "ruined for life" like all the "christian counselors" want you to feel. Hey, stuff happens, God does forgive when a person asks for forgivenss. Like I said HE touched me and MADE me whole. I feel loved by God and Whole because while I was yet a sinner, HE loved me. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING. Not living in the past. That's all I've been trying to say.

By the way, as Christians, aren't we suppose to pray for those that mistreat us? I prayed for the person that felt the need to have sex with a 10-11 year old boy. I prayed that he would be saved and hopefully be brought from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. Remember, we are all sinners, there is no one righteouss, no not one. To me, the person that did what he did to me was no worse than someone that robs a bank, cheats on his taxes, beats his wife, kicks his dog, steals from work and on and on. No worse at all. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. The bible makes very clear that God detests hypocrites. Yelling and screaming about some priest having sex, yet at the same time, you are stealing money to feed your drug habit, seems to me at least, to be just as sinful.
James2

[ April 21, 2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

[donnA]

Why is it that they are people on here who just keep trying to say that people who sexually abuse children shouldn't be punished based on what church they belong too? Why is this horrorable act being defended?

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Katie,

I'm a Catholic, and I believe that they should be punished.

God bless,

Carson

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by katie:
Why is it that they are people on here who just keep trying to say that people who sexually abuse children shouldn't be punished based on what church they belong too? Why is this horrorable act being defended?

Katie,

You've seen the DNA tests? Will you share them with me? I certainly haven't been given the mountains of proof that say all of these priests are guilty. Perhaps they are. Many might in fact be. But accusations do not equate to deeds done.

I'm not about to condemn a person that I'm not sure did something. You speak as if they are ALL guilty, making no discerment between individuals. Yes, some did wrong, and they should be punished accordingly. However, we can't rush into equating all accusations. I'd hate to be that one lone priest who really didn't do anything but got caught up in a false accusation, but it punished anyway.

[ April 21, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

[JAMES2]

Katie:
I guess I really haven't seen anyone here say that people guilty of sex with children should not be punished depending on what church they belong to.
It seems to be agreed that if someone is guilty they should be punished. Period. I think the problem is that alot of people are trying to be judge, jury and the injecter of the drug that will kill the person--guilty or innocent by gosh!!! I mean if someone "remembers" that they were "abused" 30 years ago they absolutely must be right -- right? Couldn't have anything to do with money, greed or some other less than desireble motive, right? I mean, there has NEVER been a false charge of sexual abuse, right?
I've tried to bring a little bit of objectivity to the discussion, but have been ignored. I guess people want to believe whatever they want to believe. After all, if people can jump on the band wagon (not you, but people in general over this whole issue) they can forget about their OWN sinning and pick up the biggest rock in the pile to throw at the accussed -- guilty or innocent!!!!
I can hear the mob!!! Stone him! Stone him! Away with him!!! Of course the person that just threw the biggest stone returns to his home where he is shacking with his/her latest lover and congratulates himself/herself on the great deed they did for society. Thank God that in this country (at least until the International Court of Criminals (ICC) of the United Nations takes over) a person isn't convicted by mob rule but actually gets a jury trial first.
James2

[ April 22, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:

You've seen the DNA tests? Will you share them with me? I certainly haven't been given the mountains of proof that say all of these priests are guilty.

Have you read through this thread? How much proof does a person need? Priests and/or bishops are already found guilty, had former criminal records, and the Catholic Church protects them? You bury your head in the sand and say, where is the DNA tests???
Where is the justice? Where is the logic in defending already-convicted child-molesters?
DHK

 

[JAMES2]

DHK:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not defending already convicted molesters. I'm defending those that are being convicted by the mob before they have had their day in court, especially based on charges from years ago.

As for Bishops or Cardinals that absolutely KNEW people to be guilty and covered it up that's a different matter. In my book I would think that would be a felony -- Obstruction of Justice. Law has said that well, based on the best advice of the "professionals" he didn't report it. That kind of proves my point that these so-called "professional" psycobabblers are sicker than the people they are "treating." And it is rather disturbing that a Cardinal would actually listen to that drivel. If someone obstructs justice I would expect them to be treated like they would treat me. Charges should be filed if the evidence is there, no matter what office anyone holds.
James2

 

[HankD]

On 60 Minutes last night

RE: Santa Fe New Mexico.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/19/60minutes/main506755.shtml

 

[Clint Kritzer]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-042202law.story

 

[Carson Weber]

VATICAN CITY, APR 23, 2002 (VIS) - The meeting this morning in the Vatican with Pope John Paul, 12 United States cardinals and a number of members of the Roman Curia began with an opening prayer and a welcome by Cardinal Angelo Sodano, secretary of state. The president of the United States episcopal conference addressed the meeting, as did the U.S. cardinals.

Pope John Paul then spoke. "I greatly appreciate the effort you are making," he told the American cardinals, "to keep the Holy See, and me personally, informed regarding the complex and difficult situation which has arisen in your country in recent months. ... You have come to the house of the Successor of Peter. ... The door of this house is always open to you. All the more so when your communities are in distress."

"Like you," the Pope continued, "I too have been deeply grieved by the fact that priests and religious, whose vocation it is to help people live holy lives in the sight of God, have themselves caused such suffering and scandal to the young. Because of the great harm done by some priests and religious, the Church herself is viewed with distrust, and many are offended at the way in which the Church's leaders are perceived to have acted in this matter. The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God. To the victims and their families, wherever they may be, I express my profound sense of solidarity and concern."

"It is true," he stated, "that a generalized lack of knowledge of the nature of the problem and also at times the advice of clinical experts led Bishops to make decisions which subsequent events showed to be wrong. You are now working to establish more reliable criteria to ensure that such mistakes are not repeated. ... While recognizing how indispensable these criteria are, we cannot forget the power of Christian conversion. ... Neither should we forget the immense spiritual, human and social good that the vast majority of priests and religious in the United States have done and are still doing."

"A great work of art may be blemished, but its beauty remains; and this is a truth which any intellectually honest critic will recognize." The Pope then expressed his personal "wholehearted" thanks to Catholic communities in the U.S., to teachers in Catholic universities and schools, and to American missionaries in all parts of the world.

"The abuse of the young," John Paul underscored, "is a grave symptom of a crisis affecting not only the Church but society as a whole. It is a deep-seated crisis of sexual morality, even of human relationships, and its prime victims are the family and the young. In addressing the problem of abuse with clarity and determination, the Church will help society to understand and deal with the crisis in its midst."

"It must be absolutely clear to the Catholic faithful, and to the wider community, that Bishops and superiors are concerned, above all else, with the spiritual good of souls. People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young. They must know that Bishops and priests are totally committed to the fullness of Catholic truth on matters of sexual morality."

The Holy Father told those assembled: "We must be confident that this time of trial will bring a purification of the entire Catholic community, a purification that is urgently needed if the Church is to preach more effectively the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its liberating force."

"God alone is the source of holiness," declared the Pope. "It is to him above all that we must turn for forgiveness, for healing and for the grace to meet this challenge with uncompromising courage and harmony of purpose."

The Holy Father concluded; "I beg the Lord to give the Bishops of the United States the strength to build their response to the present crisis upon the solid foundations of faith and upon genuine pastoral charity for the victims, as well as for the priests and the entire Catholic community in your country. And I ask Catholics to stay close to their priests and Bishops, and to support them with their prayers at this difficult time."

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

1. Action speaks louder than words and symbollic media PR. So far, all we have are words...no action to remove Law from his post and have him prosecuted for his cover up.

2. The Pope misses the point that yes, while the crime of sexual abuse is horrible, it is the cover up that has rocked the public's image of the Catholic Church and even the Pope himself. Bernard Law is the problem and needs to be removed from leadership and prosecuted.

Joseph Botwinick