Is Prayer Necessary for Salvation?

[Yelsew2]

Yelsew: I can accept that you believe Grace doesn't save, but the Bible teaches. Nothing about Grace being an environment:

Kathryn here's another illustration.

"For by plane which you boarded through faith, you arrived here, but you were not the pilot though your plane had a pilot, and all you could do is sit in one of the passenger seats, so you have nothing to boast about."

The question is this, What really transpired?

The plane was available to you, and you knew your destination, and you knew that there was nothing you could do to fly the plane, and you contributed nothing to the effort, so you could not boast about doing anything, yet you arrived because you had Faith to get on the plane.

No one held a gun at your head and forced you to get on board the airplane, you did it out of faith! But if you did not have the faith to board the plane, you would not have made the trip, so what got you from point A to point B? Your FAITH, everything else was already in place, already done for you....and THAT IS GRACE!

Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE!

That is parallel to:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of your self, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

I hope this helps you to understand!

 

[Brother Adam]

You've left out the Atonement, you know, what "The Passion of the Christ" so aptly depicts.

The atonement of Christ, his suffering and death, is what makes the New Covenant avalible to us. God's grace, or favor, towards mankind is why Jesus came to us in the first time. The grace of God allows salvation to be avalible to those who choose to respond to God.

While grace is present, God Atoned for ALL sins in ALL times Once, for ALL.

Right, this is why we no longer atone for sins through mosaic law.

While Grace is present, man can Hear God's Holy Word and Believe unto FAITH.

The issue here is understanding what faith is.

Therefore, GRACE enabled Atonement, AND FAITH

But look at all who do not have faith while in the midst of God's grace. If it is God's grace that saves there should be no one who is not saved. That is why I say it is FAITH ALONE that saves and Not Grace, though grace is the enabler of FAITH. God saves only those who have faith, while He gives his grace to ALL unilaterally and universally.

We are saved by grace. This doesn't mean everyone is eternally saved. It means that through God's favor we can be saved.

FAITH ALONE SAVES! Thank God for His Grace by which we can come to faith in Him, and thereby receive his Gift of Grace which is SALVATION! FAITH ALONE SANCTIFIES the believer setting him apart from the unbeliever, ALL, while God is shedding His grace on thee!

You are flying all over the board with this concept. Because what you are saying here, depending on how you define your words, is not seen in the Bible. If you mean to suggest that faith means mere belief, you are wrong. Our fruits done through the grace of God after redemption santify us. Faith justifies us. Biblically however we know there is more to faith than mere belief, since we know even the demons understand Jesus is the Messiah and died for the sins of humanity. Though they are demons and not humans, the illustration makes its point.

Our initial justification is a work of God. Not anything that we can ever contribute to, but only something that we can participate in.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew, you say:
Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE!

That is parallel to:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of your self, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

Scripture tells us:

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Scripture teaches faith, hope, and charity are gifts from God. It doesn't teach that it is our action in response to existing Grace. Scripturally, our response is to knock on door, which is Jesus Christ, open the door, repent to God for our sins and be baptized. Our response is to accept or reject the gift of faith. God wanted us to have freewill. Faith is not our response, it is a gift from God. We accept the gift or not.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:8

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:

FAITH ALONE SAVES! Thank God for His Grace by which we can come to faith in Him, and thereby receive his Gift of Grace which is SALVATION! FAITH ALONE SANCTIFIES the believer setting him apart from the unbeliever, ALL, while God is shedding His grace on thee!

[QB]

You are flying all over the board with this concept. Because what you are saying here, depending on how you define your words, is not seen in the Bible. If you mean to suggest that faith means mere belief, you are wrong. Our fruits done through the grace of God after redemption santify us. Faith justifies us. Biblically however we know there is more to faith than mere belief, since we know even the demons understand Jesus is the Messiah and died for the sins of humanity. Though they are demons and not humans, the illustration makes its point.

Our initial justification is a work of God. Not anything that we can ever contribute to, but only something that we can participate in.

Just who is flying all over the board here? Let's look at the verse more carefully and examine what is what.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

First: "For by grace are ye saved"
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul makes it clear: if salvation is by grace, works have NOTHING to do with it. It is either by grace or by works. You can't have both. The one nullifies the other.
We know that salvation is by grace. Over and over the Scripture tells us that salvation is by grace. Three times in Ephesians two alone it tells that we are saved by grace. But what is grace? Simply defined grace is God's undeserved favor to man; that is all. It is the merit from God that we do not deserve. God doesn't have to send us rain; He doesn't have to make the sun to shine; He doesn't have to keep the air "breatheable" with oxygen; He doesn't have to keep the earth rotating on its axis and revolving around the sun. All of these he does through his grace and his mercy. His mercy, because He loves us and shows us compassion. His grace, because in spite of our rebellious natures and we don't even deserve these things, He gives them to us anyway.

It was out of love, mercy, and especially grace, that God incarnate (Jesus Christ) came down and died for our sins. He shed His blood on our behalf. He paid the penalty four our sins, a penalty that we could never pay, a penalty that could never be paid by works no matter how many works we would be able to do. He paid the penalty of death with his own blood
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)
When Christ hung on the cross, with his last gasping breath, he cried out "It is finished." (John 19:30), meaning that the work of salvation was done. There was nothing more to do. There was nothing man could add to it. Not baptism, church membership, any sacrament, NOTHING that man could do would merit salvation. It was ALL of grace. The penalty had been paid. Christ had paid it. "It is finished." Then "He have up the ghost and died."

"saved by grace" refers to Christ's part in the work of salvation. Christ did it all. Man did nothing. It is all of grace. Nothing is of man. Christ paid the penalty, man paid nothing. This alone nullifies the doctrines of purgatory and of baptismal regeneration. It is the grace of God that saves, not any work of man. Christ, by His grace, saves; not man, by his works.

"through faith" That great work on the cross is meaningless unless it is appropriated through faith. That is why Paul said to the Philippian jailor, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." To believe is to have faith. Believing is an action word here. It is not mere intellectual assent. As Romans 10:9,10 point out is "believing in thy heart," that saves. My parents are Roman Catholics. They believe all the orthodox doctrines about Christ: His deity, death on the cross, burial, resurrection on the third day, His power to save, His coming again, His virgin birth, etc. And yet they are not save. If they believe that Christ is God, and that Christ saves, why are they not saved? Because they have not appropriated that knowledge to themselves. They have not believed in their hearts. It is all head knowledge. To equate saving faith or belief to intellectual belief (such as the demons have) is wrong.
Salvation is by faith, and faith alone. Eph.2:8,9 clearly teaches that.

FAITH + NO WORKS = FAITH OR

1 + 0 = 1 OR

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS EQUAL TO FAITH ALONE.

Salvation is by faith alone. The verse plainly teaches this.
It also teaches it in the verse part when it say that salvation is by grace. As we see through Romans 11:6, If salvation is by grace it is impossible for salvation to be by works; the one nullifies the other. Any person claiming that works has anything to do with salvation does not comprehend the Bible's teaching on salvation.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

DHK: Is prayer necessary for salvation?

 

[Yelsew2]

Kathryn,
Once again you are deceived. Faith is the human response to Divine truth. The truth about things not seen.

Faith is the acceptance of truth while lack of Faith is the rejection of truth.

Faith is the substance of what we hope for, the evidence of what we cannot see.

We cannot see what we believe exists, but we have faith that it does exist! For example, Jesus said, "...Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life". That is but a promise of something that we cannot see, but we hope it is true, so we have faith that provides the substance of what we hope for which is, fulfillment of Jesus promise to us.

We have nothing to offer but faith as the substance of what we hope for.

Our faith is also the only evidence that we can offer as proof that what we hope for is real.

Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! God made man with the innate ability to have faith! Man can have faith in virtually anything, a chair, a car, a spouse, children, his own abilities to do a wide variety of things such as skiing, playing golf, driving a car, etc.,

Faith in God is not a gift from God but is one more thing that man can, and in order to be saved must have. Granted, Faith in God is the most important faith that man can have, but it is not the only faith that man can and must have. To define faith as a gift of God is quite simply incorrect.

Ephesians 2:8 does not say that faith is the gift of God, but that "been saved" is the gift of God. Look at the context which is Eph 2:1-10 the context is that salvation is the gift of God, and not Faith! Salvation is what God gives to those men who believe in (have faith in) Him.

 

[Brother Adam]

Kathryn,

DHK and Yeslew2 insist that something like baptism is a work of the law, done by man, instead of a work of God that man merely participates in, thus baptism cannot be tied in anyway with redemption, as you and any other liturgical church sees it.

As you can see from DHK's post it is the application of the head knowledge to the heart that they believe saves, and the normal means of doing this is through prayer. You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew: You say:

Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE!

And you say:

Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved!

The bible says it is a gift from God:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
The bible says it is a gift from God:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

It is not the faith that is the gift here; it is the salvation.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Kathryn,

DHK and Yeslew2 insist that something like baptism is a work of the law, done by man, instead of a work of God that man merely participates in, thus baptism cannot be tied in anyway with redemption, as you and any other liturgical church sees it.

As you can see from DHK's post it is the application of the head knowledge to the heart that they believe saves, and the normal means of doing this is through prayer. You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.

You must be one special person Adam.
The Bible says that no man has seen God face to face, and lived.
Even when Christ was on earth, concerning baptism Jesus baptized no one, only his disciples baptized.
But now Jesus is not here in person.

So tell me: Have you ever seen God baptize anyone?
Have you ever seen God being the recipient of anyone's baptism?

Is baptism always done by a man?
Is the recipient of the baptism always a man (mankind meaning inclunding women)?
If the answer is yes here, Adam, then it is a work of man and not of God. Man does it. Man receives it. It is a work of man and not of God. God commands it, but God isn't doing it. Man is doing it, carrying out the command of God. Therefore it is still man's work. A relgious work, yes, but the work of a man, nevertheless. Works have no place in God's economy of salvation. If they do in your understanding of salvaton, then you are not saved, for one can only be saved through grace, by faith, without works. You either believe the Bible or you don't.
DHK

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Kathryn,

DHK and Yeslew2 insist that something like baptism is a work of the law, done by man, instead of a work of God that man merely participates in, thus baptism cannot be tied in anyway with redemption, as you and any other liturgical church sees it.

As you can see from DHK's post it is the application of the head knowledge to the heart that they believe saves, and the normal means of doing this is through prayer. You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.

"whoa, YOU silver tongued devil you", DHK and Yelsew2 did not say, or "insist" what you insinuate they did. "Back off Jack" you sidewinder! You ain't gonna get away with that kind of twistin' of my words nor of DHKs.

 

[Yelsew2]

You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.

Go back and read my posts you tin horn, and you'll see that I have already answered the question!

 

[Kathryn]

Adam: Thanks for your input. As far as baptism. This is my take on it. It seems many here are confused like John the Baptist when John couldn’t imagine why Jesus Christ would want him to baptize Him.

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Jesus understood how His baptism would be different. The Father and Holy Spirit did the real work. Jesus spiritually died, was buried, and was raised and was declared the Father’s Son. But of course the spiritual is not considered real by many here. Jesus showed those who believe in Him what happens when we are baptized. He also taught there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. I am usually told here that Jesus’ baptism was different. Don’t expect the trinity to show up at anyone's baptism. But this is what faith is. Thank God, when one suffers [it to be so] and Christans just obey Jesus and are baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, as Jesus submitted Himself, it is the same one Baptism as Jesus Christ. We spiritually die with Jesus, and rise with Him, and are born again. Those who only had John's baptism of repentance, needed to be baptized into Christ's baptism, and be born again.

It is interesting, but sad, all the different ideas on salvation here. Prayer, repentance, lifting our hearts to God, baptism are all Christian works, which means it's Christ working with us. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing anyone can brag about or take credit for. Those who do the will of the Father will be saved by Grace through faith.

 

[Kathryn]

DHK says: It is not the faith that is the gift here; it is the salvation.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Faith, hope, and charity, are all gifts from God. Salvation is also a gift.


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God


DHK: Since you disagree with me, are you agreeing with Yelsew?:

"Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE! "

" Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! "


The subject of the thread is : Do you believe prayer is necessary for salvation? How about your answer. Can anyone be saved without raising their hearts to God and repenting?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:

DHK says: It is not the faith that is the gift here; it is the salvation.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[QB]

Faith, hope, and charity, are all gifts from God.

Can you demonstrate through Scripture? As posted below salvation is the gift of God. How does one obtain faith? It is not a gift. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." The more you listen, read, and study the Word of God, the more confidence or faith you will be able to put in the Word of God, and thus in God Himself. Faith is confidence or trust. Trust is something that is gained. How do you gain the trust of someone? By spending time with that person and getting to know them. How much time do you spend with God getting to know Him? "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." It is not some mystical magical gift that is supernaturally put somewhere inside of you that has to be somehow coaxed out of you, as many people think.
What is hope? Do you hope that you will have a good day? A good week? What kind of things do you hope for? When you hope that you will have a good day, is that hope a hope that is a gift of God? No. Neither is the hope that is in us when we hope for the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a hope that is born out of the study of Scripture, and also of our personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is not a gift in the sense of the gifts of the spirit. It is not a gift in the senst that it is given to Christians, and not to those that don't believe. Every person has hope; every person has faith; every person has love. The difference is the object. What is the object of you faith; the object of your love; the object of your hope. The object of my love is Jesus Christ. He is my hope. I put my faith in Him.

Salvation is also a gift.

It is THE gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

DHK: Since you disagree with me, are you agreeing with Yelsew?:

"Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE! "

The existing grace is the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What is your response to that sacrifice. You either accept it by faith and faith alone. Or you reject it. Faith is the action that you take. Jesus, making a play on words called it the only work possible that man can do.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

" Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! "

That is exactly what Jesus said in John 6:28,29, isn't it. It is the requirement for eternal life. It is not the gift; salvation is the gift. You acquire the gift by appropriating it by faith.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--Receive Him (as a gift). How--by faith (believing on his name.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

DHK:
You seem to agree with Yelsew about salvation.

" Faith is not a gift of God , it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! "

However, faith, hope and charity are gifts from God, and the greatest of the gifts is love.

1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Remember there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

What about the necessity of prayer in salvation?Can anyone be saved without raising their hearts to God and repenting?

[ March 22, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Kathryn]

DHK: The Bible teaches Christians to believe in the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything He said did, taught and commanded. Just believing and not responding and accepting the gospel is not what is taught in Holy Scripture.

 

[Kathryn]

Jesus Christ supplies all our needs for salvation. Because of freewill we accept or reject his gifts. We can accept or reject the gifts of faith, hope, and love. Faith doesn't come from me, it comes from God. Big difference.

And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:19

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK: The Bible teaches Christians to believe in the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything He said did, taught and commanded. Just believing and not responding and accepting the gospel is not what is taught in Holy Scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The gospel is very plain and very simple: the death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the gospel by which you are saved. This is which Paul teaches and declares right here.
The word "gospel" simply means "good news"
The gospel is: the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

A gospel is the Gospel of Matthew, or the Gospel of Mark, or the Gospel of Luek, or the Gospel of John.

To be saved there is only one gospel and that is given in 1Cor.15:1-4
Furthermore, Paul said:

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

There is only one gospel. It is described in 1Cor.15:1-4. It is that gospel which saves. It is a gospel without works, and it is by faith alone. If you have any other gospel, a gospel that includes works, Paul says that you are accursed.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

It is not a gift. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

This is how God gives his gift of faith. This is why the Great Commission was given to the Church to go out to all nations making disciples and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all He commanded. The Gospel of Jesus Christ must be brought to the whole world.