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Is predestination disturbing?
- Thread starter David Ekstrom
- Start date
Hello KJ.
It does not matter if Adam was perfect or not it was not Adam but God holding the smoking gun. Why does God blame us if it was Adam's fault!
Who cares whose fault it was anyway we had nothing to do with it. It wasn't me guv! I wasn't there and I can prove it. He cannot blame me.
Hello whatever.
Adam chose Adam is sovereign.
God chose God is Sovereign.
In general.
The Alpha and Omega does not die because of a man's decision but for His own glory. We would not have known how much He loved us if He fell short of death for us. He has a desire to reveal His glory and to that end everything becomes a justified tool. Not that God has to be justified by us. Who are we that we should squawk? The end justifies the means and the end is the glory of God and the means was sin.
john.
The Holy Spirit does as He pleases. That He convicts of sin I do not doubt but that He must do so before a man is saved is false.
It does not matter if Adam was perfect or not it was not Adam but God holding the smoking gun. Why does God blame us if it was Adam's fault!
Who cares whose fault it was anyway we had nothing to do with it. It wasn't me guv! I wasn't there and I can prove it. He cannot blame me. Hello whatever.
There are two alternatives.
Adam chose Adam is sovereign.
God chose God is Sovereign.
In general.
The Alpha and Omega does not die because of a man's decision but for His own glory. We would not have known how much He loved us if He fell short of death for us. He has a desire to reveal His glory and to that end everything becomes a justified tool. Not that God has to be justified by us. Who are we that we should squawk? The end justifies the means and the end is the glory of God and the means was sin.
john.
Someone said: Adam and Eve were not "depraved" in Gen. 3:12. If that be true, when did they become "depraved"?
Let us see: Adam is blaming God for providing the wife who gave him the forbidden fruit. Eve is passing the blame to the Serpent. They were not depraved yet?
Who gets the blame? Eve was beguiled. Adam was not beguiled--he participated willfully, knowing that this was disobedience to God. The scripture says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned", Ro. 5:12. Also verse 19: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Mankind became depraved in Gen. 3:6,7 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Selah,
Bro. James
Let us see: Adam is blaming God for providing the wife who gave him the forbidden fruit. Eve is passing the blame to the Serpent. They were not depraved yet?
Who gets the blame? Eve was beguiled. Adam was not beguiled--he participated willfully, knowing that this was disobedience to God. The scripture says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned", Ro. 5:12. Also verse 19: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Mankind became depraved in Gen. 3:6,7 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Selah,
Bro. James
Bob Krajcik
New Member
Are you interested in his accomplishments? I’m really not. There is nothing that he offers of true value that is not shown in the Bible.
But, I admit, one of the old divines I enjoy reading, he speaks so clear, is Augustus Toplady. An Online search discovers some of his writing.
Diane referred to free will, but you specifically said,
Is it all the same with you? Or did those Diane mentioned actually support what you say?
Of coarse, of importance is what the Scripture have to say. That is why I generally deal with the written word so much in my posts.
By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
Bob Krajcik
New Member
So, then is God putting in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast?
If God does this, what is the problem if God would actually save a man from tehir sin, rether than to leave them to their own devieces? </font>[/QUOTE]God does this because it is near the end of time and they have heard the gospel and freely rejected it rather than repenting. ...
</font>[/QUOTE]I suppose you could be right, but I think you are wrong about this. There are many passages that speak of the Lord turning the heart, and not just during the tribulation. As for those that had previously heard and rejected therefore not being able to be saved during the tribulation, I suppose you could be right, but again, I don’t think you are right. I’ve heard that said previous, but I really haven’t seen it supported. Further that is contrary to grace, making salvation depend on a judicial system of rewards. But to move past that, here are some passages that speak of the Lord turning the heart.
1 Kings 18:37 (KJV) Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
Ezra 6:22 (KJV) And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
Psalms 105:25 (KJV) He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
Proverbs 21:1 (KJV) The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
In the first place, the Scriptures declare that all are the children of wrath by the first birth, at enmity towards God. When God turned their heart one way or the other, I don’t think he turned them to anything that was contrary to there own nature. That is the point, that man has a heart that is filthy, and man is on a coarse that leads to destruction. Everything will play out as God has decreed. If a man comes to himself, and sees the condition of his heart and sees the end of his life, realizing all things are in God’s hand, realizing God will deal with him in mercy, or in justice, there is reason discovered for a man to turn to the Lord, and beg for mercy. There has never been a man that wanted to turn to the Lord in such a way that was refused and there never shall be. Never. Before man discovers the condition of their heart and the end of their life, they are in God’s face, refusing to have God rule over them. Even the ridiculous argument that is sometimes made, using election as if that were a reason for refusing to obey God, because they wouldn’t know if they are elect or not is evidence that one is still in their sin, still in the bonds of iniquity. I’ll tell you what, such a person has not come to their senses, and has not yet realized the gravity of the matter. If men saw the condition of their heart and the end of such things, he would not be as giddy and boastful of their own ways as many show themselves to be. I’m not talking about simply misunderstanding something, but look about and see how many make it their practice to boldly and purposefully make false accusations about what another has said or what another believes, even on this forum. That is sin, and one seeing the sin in their own life should give them reason to fear, if they have indeed come to their senses about sin and the life to come. Mercy or justice. One is turned from their sin, or continues in their sin. One either changes or they do not. God saves His people from their sin. Mercy or justice, and if it is mercy, the word declares let the man that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity. There are foolish ones that imagine grace is license to sin, imaging sin really doesn’t matter that much if one is saved, but that is a false notion, for salvation is from sin, not in sin. The foolish have no fear of God, there is no changes with them, and so they continue in sin. It is easy enough to quote the exact words of another, and comment on those words, however that might not show what their opponent wants them to be saying, so instead there is the in your face attitude and deception that would put words in another man’s mouth, purposefully and willfully, rebelliously. There is no fear of the Lord demonstrated when one purposefully misrepresents what another says. What is so freighting, that when some misrepresent what another has said, even on this message board, they insist the one they have misrepresented agree with the false charges. This business of misrepresenting others, isn’t that how the prophets were treated, and isn’t that how our Lord Jesus Christ was treated? The religious crowd did it then and they do it now.
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
Bob Krajcik
New Member
Psalms 115:3 (KJV) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Very true.
It PLEASED Him to "SO LOVE THE WORLD" and ALSO to "GIVE His only Son".
It PLEASED Him to Love EVEN the Lost and so to WEEP over their loss.
It PLEASED Him to WARN the saints that SHOULD THEY rejoice over the judgment of the wicked GOD would be DISPLEASED with the Saints!
It PLEASED HIM to have Christ die "For OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD".
It PLEASED Him to send Jesus as "THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" 1John 4:14.
And IF you were Calvinist you must assume that it is now PLEASING God to have ME now point out the blunders of Calvinism as I am doing. In which case - on that point - we BOTH agree!
In Christ,
Bob
It PLEASED Him to "SO LOVE THE WORLD" and ALSO to "GIVE His only Son".
It PLEASED Him to Love EVEN the Lost and so to WEEP over their loss.
It PLEASED Him to WARN the saints that SHOULD THEY rejoice over the judgment of the wicked GOD would be DISPLEASED with the Saints!
It PLEASED HIM to have Christ die "For OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD".
It PLEASED Him to send Jesus as "THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" 1John 4:14.
And IF you were Calvinist you must assume that it is now PLEASING God to have ME now point out the blunders of Calvinism as I am doing. In which case - on that point - we BOTH agree!
In Christ,
Bob
Bob Krajcik
New Member
If one is to be saved, they must be born again (Ezek 36:26; John 3:6-7), and receive a new heart that they would see their sin and turn from it (1Cor 2:14). Such is of God, as the Scriptures so clearly show, therefore He is to be feared (2Tim 1:9; Rom 9:16; Phil 2:13; Matt 11:25; Luke 10:21; Eph 2:4-9).
By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
Bob Krajcik
New Member
Romans 9:16 (KJV) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:18 (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:18 (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
BrotherJoe
New Member
TEXAS SKY SAID: Brother Joe asked if I prefer my soul to be in God's hands?
That is why I accepted the Lord as my Lord and Savior. I chose my soul to be in God's hands. I chose my soul to be in the hands of the God who says He loves us..."
BROTHER JOE: Sister Texas, it is important for us to remember that EVERY time the Bible uses the word "chose" throughout the entire N.T. it is actually referring to God choosing us for eternal salvation not the other way around. I hope the following sample verses bring you much comfort:
1)"...but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen..." (Mark 13:20B)
2)"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..." (John 15:16A)
3)"...I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John 15:19A)
4)"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9)
5)"for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen...," (Revelation 17:14a)
Now, when according to the scripture did God choose us?
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.." (Ephesians 1:4A)
and
"because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation " (2 Thes 2:13B)
God bless you,
Brother Joe
That is why I accepted the Lord as my Lord and Savior. I chose my soul to be in God's hands. I chose my soul to be in the hands of the God who says He loves us..."
BROTHER JOE: Sister Texas, it is important for us to remember that EVERY time the Bible uses the word "chose" throughout the entire N.T. it is actually referring to God choosing us for eternal salvation not the other way around. I hope the following sample verses bring you much comfort:
1)"...but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen..." (Mark 13:20B)
2)"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..." (John 15:16A)
3)"...I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John 15:19A)
4)"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9)
5)"for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen...," (Revelation 17:14a)
Now, when according to the scripture did God choose us?
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.." (Ephesians 1:4A)
and
"because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation " (2 Thes 2:13B)
God bless you,
Brother Joe
Wes Outwest
New Member
What is described in the passage you refered to is that Adam and Eve became SINNERS! Not depraved!
Their actions upon having their eyes opened, certainly do not fit the actions of the depraved.
They sought ways to hide their nakedness, the depraved revel in the nakedness.
They sought refuge from "retribution", the depraved are openly defiant to retribution.
There were no "obvious" physical or mental changes in them, only in their awareness, an awareness of their disobedience of God and what God told them.
Don't make more of it than the scriptures reveal! It was not until later generations that depravity, resulting from the knowledge of good and evil now present in man, set in amongst men, including the first child of Adam and Eve.
Yes Adam and Eve are where it began, but they themselves did not intantly become depraved, only sinners! Sinning is not depravity until sin rules the sinner! Clearly in Genesis 3, sin did not yet rule the sinner.
Bob Krajcik
New Member
Matthew 12:34 (KJV) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 15:19 (KJV) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Out of the corrupt heart man imagines they will please God and come to Him, by the work of their own hands. Foolishness. Until such time as man sees that pit of vile wickedness, they will find nothing in Jesus that they would desire Him. The new birth is foolishness to the natural man. I say again, If one is to be saved, they must be born again (Ezek 36:26; John 3:6-7), and receive a new heart that they would see their sin and turn from it (1Cor 2:14). Such is of God, as the Scriptures so clearly show, therefore He is to be feared (2Tim 1:9; Rom 9:16, 18, 21; Phil 2:13; Matt 11:25; Luke 10:21; Eph 2:4-9).
By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
Matthew 15:19 (KJV) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Out of the corrupt heart man imagines they will please God and come to Him, by the work of their own hands. Foolishness. Until such time as man sees that pit of vile wickedness, they will find nothing in Jesus that they would desire Him. The new birth is foolishness to the natural man. I say again, If one is to be saved, they must be born again (Ezek 36:26; John 3:6-7), and receive a new heart that they would see their sin and turn from it (1Cor 2:14). Such is of God, as the Scriptures so clearly show, therefore He is to be feared (2Tim 1:9; Rom 9:16, 18, 21; Phil 2:13; Matt 11:25; Luke 10:21; Eph 2:4-9).
By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
Bob Krajcik
New Member
The heart rules the sinner, Wes.
BrotherJoe
New Member
Sister TexasSky said: That is why I accepted the Lord as my Lord and Savior. I chose my soul to be in God's hands. I chose my soul to be in the hands of the God who says He loves us
BROTHER JOE: We must keep in mind that no place in the entire Bible ever instructs us,or a gospel minister,an apostle, or teacher ever to instruct an individual to say a prayer to "accept Jesus into their heart" in order to initiate eternal life in an individual. Nor does any scripture ever make mention of a "sinners prayer" to bring eternal life to mankind. Both of these activities are inventions by man made religion that makes the sinner an active particpant in becoming "accepted" by God. Unfortunatly, because of this kind of false teaching we now have many people in churches today who are actually trusting in a prayer they said when they were a kid,or an aisle they walked in response to a "gospel invintation", or a "decision" they made "for Christ for their eteral salvation rather than trusting in the shed sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Contrary to the teaching of mordern religion, the Bible tells us God has accepted us, not the other way around. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6)
Is this cheap grace? No, in no ways, for the same chapter explains it was obtained at a high cost by Christ for his people, "7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Ephesians 1:7a)
Now, whose will is involved in this "decision "according to scripture, ours or Gods? The same chapter answers this question for us "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will " (Ephesians 1:5)
Let us both praise God for granting us wretched undeserving sinners to be partakers in his son!God bless you and hope you have a wonderful 4rth!
Brother Joe
BROTHER JOE: We must keep in mind that no place in the entire Bible ever instructs us,or a gospel minister,an apostle, or teacher ever to instruct an individual to say a prayer to "accept Jesus into their heart" in order to initiate eternal life in an individual. Nor does any scripture ever make mention of a "sinners prayer" to bring eternal life to mankind. Both of these activities are inventions by man made religion that makes the sinner an active particpant in becoming "accepted" by God. Unfortunatly, because of this kind of false teaching we now have many people in churches today who are actually trusting in a prayer they said when they were a kid,or an aisle they walked in response to a "gospel invintation", or a "decision" they made "for Christ for their eteral salvation rather than trusting in the shed sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Contrary to the teaching of mordern religion, the Bible tells us God has accepted us, not the other way around. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6)
Is this cheap grace? No, in no ways, for the same chapter explains it was obtained at a high cost by Christ for his people, "7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Ephesians 1:7a)
Now, whose will is involved in this "decision "according to scripture, ours or Gods? The same chapter answers this question for us "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will " (Ephesians 1:5)
Let us both praise God for granting us wretched undeserving sinners to be partakers in his son!God bless you and hope you have a wonderful 4rth!
Brother Joe
BrotherJoe
New Member
Originally posted by TexasSky:
I prefer a loving God who offers grace to all men, to a God that says, "Okay, you guys don't stand a chance. I will never forgive you. I will never allow you enjoy the clensing of the blood of Christ. I will fix it so you CAN'T be saved. - Just because
BROTHE JOE: Sister, I believe you need to take a more proper perspective on election and God's judgement. Through election and eternal judgement God magnifies two different aspects of his character to two different groups of people. God gives one group of souls (those whom he elected)mercy. Mercy by definition is undeserved kindness. The other group of souls that God passed over and left in THEIR sin (not God's sin) go to eternal Hell- they get justice. Justice is what they deserved for their willful transgressions of God's Holy Law. Notice in both instances God commits no evil. That is, one group gets justice and the other mercy.
If God was obligated to give mercy to every single human being, then we are no longer talking about mercy because mercy is by definition something that one isnt obligated to show because it is undeserved. I hope that explanation clarifies things. Have a happy and safe 4rth !
God bless you,
Brother Joe
I prefer a loving God who offers grace to all men, to a God that says, "Okay, you guys don't stand a chance. I will never forgive you. I will never allow you enjoy the clensing of the blood of Christ. I will fix it so you CAN'T be saved. - Just because
BROTHE JOE: Sister, I believe you need to take a more proper perspective on election and God's judgement. Through election and eternal judgement God magnifies two different aspects of his character to two different groups of people. God gives one group of souls (those whom he elected)mercy. Mercy by definition is undeserved kindness. The other group of souls that God passed over and left in THEIR sin (not God's sin) go to eternal Hell- they get justice. Justice is what they deserved for their willful transgressions of God's Holy Law. Notice in both instances God commits no evil. That is, one group gets justice and the other mercy.
If God was obligated to give mercy to every single human being, then we are no longer talking about mercy because mercy is by definition something that one isnt obligated to show because it is undeserved. I hope that explanation clarifies things. Have a happy and safe 4rth !
God bless you,
Brother Joe
Man got depraved in degrees??
Was Cain depraved when he killed Abel?
Was mankind depraved when God destroyed the world with a flood?
Gen. 6:5-7 "And god saw that the wicknedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast..."
Some would contend that Adam became depraved when he disobeyed God. This depravity showed up in his offspring and theirs and theirs even until today--"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". That is depravity--completely devoid of good--unable to recognize good. One can "sugar coat" it any way one likes--man is depraved by nature--from the first man--Adam.
Selah,
Bro. James
Was Cain depraved when he killed Abel?
Was mankind depraved when God destroyed the world with a flood?
Gen. 6:5-7 "And god saw that the wicknedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast..."
Some would contend that Adam became depraved when he disobeyed God. This depravity showed up in his offspring and theirs and theirs even until today--"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". That is depravity--completely devoid of good--unable to recognize good. One can "sugar coat" it any way one likes--man is depraved by nature--from the first man--Adam.
Selah,
Bro. James
Bob Krajcik
New Member
Amen
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'll only say in answer to the original question that I'm not disturbed at all by predestination. I don't think any of us would be if we saw it from God's perspective. Whether I came to believe in Christ by my own ability, or was enabled to exercise faith by God, the end result is the same, except that in the latter instance the Lord receives greater glory and I have no reason to boast.
Wes Outwest
New Member
God ELECTED that His Son die to remove the penalty of sin from mankind.
God ELECTS to behave in Grace toward ALL mankind, so that mankind can Hear his Word and believe in His Son.
God ELECTED to establish man's faith in Him as the Criteria for man's salvation.
God ELECTS to include "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH" in his son to receive His FREE GIFT of everlasting life.
God ELECTED to extend his favor outside the Jews, so that Gentiles who believe in and CONFESS Jesus can become the children of God.
God did all this ELECTING before the foundation of the world.
God ELECTS to behave in Grace toward ALL mankind, so that mankind can Hear his Word and believe in His Son.
God ELECTED to establish man's faith in Him as the Criteria for man's salvation.
God ELECTS to include "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH" in his son to receive His FREE GIFT of everlasting life.
God ELECTED to extend his favor outside the Jews, so that Gentiles who believe in and CONFESS Jesus can become the children of God.
God did all this ELECTING before the foundation of the world.