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Is predestination disturbing?
- Thread starter David Ekstrom
- Start date
D
dianetavegia
Guest
I hope you got a head start!
O
OCC
Guest
John, are you implying that all five points of Calvinism are dependent on each other? That if one is debunked, the rest fall like a drunken grandmother?
If so,
Hello dianetavegia.
Everything I do I do as a man around the house except the ironing. I am the greatest at the ironing.
'unschooled' in theology as a woman The Church is missing half. Women have been refused their rightful place in the Church and men have missed out in being with their kids as they grow up.
john.
I think it is the most wonderful job in the world. It is a pleasure and a priveledge to bring the young up.
Everything I do I do as a man around the house except the ironing. I am the greatest at the ironing.
'unschooled' in theology as a woman The Church is missing half. Women have been refused their rightful place in the Church and men have missed out in being with their kids as they grow up.
john.
O
OCC
Guest
Awww...Johnp has a sensitive side.
Is predestination disturbing?--
Only if one does not understand it--
It is not a "fine point of piety" but rather a foundational part of "the peace that passes understanding".
"the weaker the argument, the stronger the words"
Keep the faith--johnp.
Selah,
Bro. James
Only if one does not understand it--
It is not a "fine point of piety" but rather a foundational part of "the peace that passes understanding".
"the weaker the argument, the stronger the words"
Keep the faith--johnp.
Selah,
Bro. James
It is no more silly than asking whether man is free to choose Christ when he is unable to choose Christ.
Another play on words..... Boring! </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe being sloppy with words and their meanings is exciting, then, but that is not debate, so maybe the name of this board needs to be changed. The fact is that you jumped from talking about free will to talking about ability as if they were the same thing, and they are not.
T
TexasSky
Guest
The question was asked "which church fathers," and Diane answered it, but another correct is answer is "all of those whose writings have been preserved, and who were born before 1564."
His view were so unpopular that he fled the country.
John’s father died in disgrace, suspected of mismanaging church funds. John’s brother Charles was excommunicated. In 1532 John’s publication on Seneca caused no sensation at all. In 1533 John was a fugitive, suspected of being a heretic.
His view were so unpopular that he fled the country.
John’s father died in disgrace, suspected of mismanaging church funds. John’s brother Charles was excommunicated. In 1532 John’s publication on Seneca caused no sensation at all. In 1533 John was a fugitive, suspected of being a heretic.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
free will
n.
The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Dictionary definition of free will
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
I thought I'd be chancing it.
Hello KJ.
Calvinism believes the five points then not believing the five points is not Calvinism is it? Those five points are not all of Calvin's thoughts but they are the kernal.
Those five points are non-negotiable. None will fall. I don't see the connection between irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints but that would be scripture nevertheless.
We should not let Calvinism be reduced by calling a non Calvinist a Calvinist. That is why I think we should resist calling anyone hyper-Calvinistic. Is the man a Calvinist or not? At least five points. It is my opinion that's all.
At the sweatshop I was given three Lego train sets and told to build them man. Check to see if all the bits were there and that they were working. Then photograph them and take them to bits and go home. And I get paid for that. Not such a nut after all am I? Mostly I sort different sizes and colours and put them away with others like them. And sometimes she gets me to look after her daughter so I watch tele and get paid for it! Life is good man. And to top it all I work with two women. So much nicer than working with men.
john.
Hello KJ.
...a drunken grandmother? Surely not, she tripped on the step.
Calvinism believes the five points then not believing the five points is not Calvinism is it?
Those five points are not all of Calvin's thoughts but they are the kernal.Those five points are non-negotiable. None will fall. I don't see the connection between irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints but that would be scripture nevertheless.
We should not let Calvinism be reduced by calling a non Calvinist a Calvinist. That is why I think we should resist calling anyone hyper-Calvinistic. Is the man a Calvinist or not? At least five points. It is my opinion that's all.
Yea well don't spread it around or I shall deny it.
At the sweatshop I was given three Lego train sets and told to build them man. Check to see if all the bits were there and that they were working. Then photograph them and take them to bits and go home.
And I get paid for that. Not such a nut after all am I? Mostly I sort different sizes and colours and put them away with others like them. And sometimes she gets me to look after her daughter so I watch tele and get paid for it! Life is good man. And to top it all I work with two women. So much nicer than working with men.john.
We believe that man's power of making free choices is not constrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. But man's power of making free choices is constrained by internal circumstances - his being dead in sin. So your dictionary actually shows that what we affirm is properly called free will.
So, let me be more specific - you are confusing the ability to choose to perform an action with the ability to actually perform that action.
P.S. - Have you read the Abstract of Principles yet?
O
OCC
Guest
...a drunken grandmother? Surely not, she tripped on the step.Originally posted by johnp.:
I thought I'd be chancing it.
Hello KJ.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John, are you implying that all five points of Calvinism are dependent on each other? That if one is debunked, the rest fall like a drunken grandmother?
Calvinism believes the five points then not believing the five points is not Calvinism is it?
Those five points are not all of Calvin's thoughts but they are the kernal.Those five points are non-negotiable. None will fall. I don't see the connection between irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints but that would be scripture nevertheless.
We should not let Calvinism be reduced by calling a non Calvinist a Calvinist. That is why I think we should resist calling anyone hyper-Calvinistic. Is the man a Calvinist or not? At least five points. It is my opinion that's all.
Yea well don't spread it around or I shall deny it.
At the sweatshop I was given three Lego train sets and told to build them man. Check to see if all the bits were there and that they were working. Then photograph them and take them to bits and go home.
And I get paid for that. Not such a nut after all am I? Mostly I sort different sizes and colours and put them away with others like them. And sometimes she gets me to look after her daughter so I watch tele and get paid for it! Life is good man. And to top it all I work with two women. So much nicer than working with men.john. </font>[/QUOTE]
Gen. 3:12, "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat...and the woman said, 'the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat'."
So much for "freedom" of the will. Our wills are enslaved by our depraved natures. We are able to make choices; but know not how to make right choices concerning God. Only He can show us the path--we know not how to recognize that which is True--because of our depravity.
Depraved man demands a sovereignty of will equal to or perhaps exceeding that of God. Depraved man is like his father, Satan, who wants to be God--not like God, but God. Re: Pharoah, Caesar, et al.
"Choose wisely".
Selah,
Bro. James
So much for "freedom" of the will. Our wills are enslaved by our depraved natures. We are able to make choices; but know not how to make right choices concerning God. Only He can show us the path--we know not how to recognize that which is True--because of our depravity.
Depraved man demands a sovereignty of will equal to or perhaps exceeding that of God. Depraved man is like his father, Satan, who wants to be God--not like God, but God. Re: Pharoah, Caesar, et al.
"Choose wisely".
Selah,
Bro. James
T
TexasSky
Guest
Bro. James,
God didn't buy Eve's "the devil made me do it excuse," and Eve and Adam both were punished for making the wrong choice.
As to the comments about "our depravity," man was NOT depraved at the time. Man was perfect. By listening to Satan, Eve let depravity enter the world. When she chose, she chose badly.
God didn't buy Eve's "the devil made me do it excuse," and Eve and Adam both were punished for making the wrong choice.
As to the comments about "our depravity," man was NOT depraved at the time. Man was perfect. By listening to Satan, Eve let depravity enter the world. When she chose, she chose badly.
O
OCC
Guest
John, the Holy Spirit has to convict men of their sins. It is a ministry of the Holy Spirit.
TS...I don't believe man was perfect. God said man was "good" but never perfect. I don't understand how man could sin if he was perfect. If he could, then Jesus could have sinned as well. If Jesus could have sinned He wouldn't have been God. Yet if Jesus couldn't have sinned, how could He identify with our temptations? Don't mind me...my thoughts are just rambling...this is all difficult for me to understand...but I would like some help from someone more knowledgeable than I.
TS...I don't believe man was perfect. God said man was "good" but never perfect. I don't understand how man could sin if he was perfect. If he could, then Jesus could have sinned as well. If Jesus could have sinned He wouldn't have been God. Yet if Jesus couldn't have sinned, how could He identify with our temptations? Don't mind me...my thoughts are just rambling...this is all difficult for me to understand...but I would like some help from someone more knowledgeable than I.
O
OCC
Guest
This makes me curious and it is way, way off topic - why do you say that Eve did it, when Paul told the Romans that the blame was Adam's? </font>[/QUOTE]cuz everything is the woman's fault.
One thing - Jesus was divine (and still is, of course) and Adam was not. I think that helps explain why perfect Jesus could not sin even though perfect Adam could. But it does not answer the question of how one who is perfect could become imperfect. As far as I know there is only One Who knows that answer and He is not telling.
You asked "if Jesus couldn't have sinned, how could He identify with our temptations?" Thinking about that question is one reason that I am now a Calvinist, but that is a different topic.