Is predestination disturbing?

Ask grace? How do you do that?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know, "saved by grace" is your story, and you're sticking to it? You have to solve that one for yourself.

 

Grace: Mercy; clemency.

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

Bob,

I'm not making up anything. Like it or not, when you say that God only calls some and not others, what you are communicating is what I've said.

You can't have it both ways.

 

Ask Grace! That is what saves you isn't it? </font>[/QUOTE] Good one Wes.

 

As to "scripture" backing up that the elect are Christians that responded to the call. For 1500 years - the church father's agreed that Ephesians 2:4 meant exactly that. "Those who have accepted the gift of grace become special in the eyes of God. They become the new elect."

Then John Calvin wrote his theories.

 

Of course it would make a difference to God. His sovereign choice of individuals always shows itself as faith in His beloved Son. The elect are those of faith in Christ, and those alone.

Now, please explain how it is more loving to create a being that you know will suffer eternal damnation than to not create that being at all.

 

It seems that when you quote a person, you must be running the words through a translator and changing the words to a different meaning. What ever you are paying that translator it is way more than they have earned. They are doing a horrible job.

 

What church fathers would those be?

As for Ephesians 2:4, I have no problem with that verse, and I have no problem with Ephesians 2:5. It is what I have been saying. God regenrates those dead in sins, thsoe that were at enmity towards God. With that, faith is the response of regeneration. Jesus is a Saviour that actually saves.

Ephesians 2:4 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Indeed in Romans 2 God claims "HE is not Partial" but Calvinism claims "HE ONLY loves the FEW of Matt 7".

IN John 3 HE SO LOVES the WORLD but Calvinism claims "HE only so loves the FEW of Matt 7".

IN 1John 4:14 "HE sends His son to the Savior of the WORLD" but Calvnism say "NO He FAILED to do that! He ONLY sends His Son to be the Savior of the FEW of MAtt 7"

In 1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT our SINS only but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
But Calvinism says "NO - He is ONLY the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins - the Elect - the FEW of MATT 7 -- NOT for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

The head on collision between Calvinism and scripture is documented over and over and over again.

The result is a Calvinist like "JohnP" Who has said "God IS The AUTHOR OF EVIL" and "God is the GREAT DESPOT" and "God is the author of Satan's lies"...

God says in Matt 7 that a GOOD tree does NOT bear BAD fruit - but Calvinism goes to Rev 3 with the LOST ALONE on the INSIDE and God on the outside knocking waiting for those on the inside to open the door so He will come in -- and THEY say this IS the "Born again saved experience" INSIDE, ALONE and WITHOUT CHRIST!!


God says HE WEEPS over the lost BUT Calvinism anticipated REJOICING at the SIGHT of their own loved ones AS they are being tormented in the flames (as pointed out in Rev 14:10 IN The presence of the Lamb!! And a claimed by Johnathan Edwards!)

The contrast between Calvinism and scripture is there for all to see - and the fruit of it is there for all to see.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wow! Got something on your mind Bob? Go on get it off your chest man.

 

Did Jesus save the world Bob? If He did then we are all home and dry ain't we? If He didn't then He is not the Saviour of the world is He? Or is that too complicatingly simple? HaHa! (Extract from The Full 8 s: Plus One.)

In simple language could you explain where that statement is wrong please. A blunderbuss is a poor choice of weapon.

john.

 

Well Johnp, you're a "saved by grace" kind of guy, and you do understand that all of creation is covered by God's grace, so why isn't all of Creation saved?

Oh, I might have forgotten, so please remind me, are you one who believes that God's grace is a commodity (like candy) that God gives in varying quantities only to those he chooses to give grace to; and that grace that he hands out is what saves?

 

Grace, God’s Grace

Yes indeed, the evidence is there...

Who by him do believe in God...
1 Peter 1:21 (KJV) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

...the faith of the operation of God...
Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

...the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers...
Colossians 1:12 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

This is the work of God, that ye believe...
John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

...your work of faith...
1 Thessalonians 1:3 (KJV) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

...work of faith...
2 Thessalonians 1:11 (KJV) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

...faith, if it hath not works, is dead...
James 2:17 (KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

...faith without works is dead...
James 2:20 (KJV) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

...faith without works is dead...
James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

For by grace are ye saved through faith, that not of yourselves...
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works...
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But the fruit of the Spirit is...faith...
Galatians 5:22 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Early Christians believed in Free Will!


Justin Martyr made this argument to the Romans: “We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it is predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.”


Clement said: “Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.”


Archelaus, writing a few decades later, repeated the same understanding: “All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases.”


Methodius, a Christian martyr who lived near the end of the third century, wrote similarly, “Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.”

 

Hello Wes.

There is no benefit from grace for the enemies of God.
ISA 26:10 Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
Since Jesus is the Saviour of the world why isn't the world saved? The next persistant question I think. Let's see how long you keep refusing to answer this one.

Like candy... It is sweet I must say and that He gives grace only to those He chooses to give it to in the quantity that He determines. Thus, JN 21:7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved... Was graced above his companions. Might be John was humble, PR 3:34 He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble. Commodity like enough for you?
Like my headdress? PR 4:9 She will set a garland of grace on your head and present you with a crown of splendor."
AC 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power... How could a man be full of God's grace? It's not a commodity is it?

john.

 

Early Christians believed in Free Will!</font>[/QUOTE]Diane,

Why do you do this to yourself? Calvinists believe in free will too.

"God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures."

This is taken from The Abstract of Principles. I posted the link to it the other day. Have you read it yet? Here's the link again just in case.

http://www.sbts.edu/aboutus/abstract.php

 

Early Christians believed in Free Will!
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, and so do I. There would be no joy of salvation without the will being free.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Did you read the quote? Did you follow the link? It is not my fault that you do not know what we believe.

PS - Are administrators really allowed to accuse other posters of lying?

[ July 02, 2005, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: whatever ]

 

Justin Martyr made this argument to the Romans: “We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it is predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.”

What Justin Martyr argues against - JohnP calls "the great DESPOT" that "authors SIN" and even "authors the lies of Satan".

IN the CAlvinist view man CAN NOT do good and those that DO good deserve no credit - after all it is ALL OF GOD and none of MAN.

They dispute Justin Martyr.

In Christ,

Bob