Is predestination disturbing?

I did answer the question. You just didn't recognize it as an answer, and I may know what Cavlinism teaches better than you do.

To put it simply - you paint a picture of a God who people neither truly follow or truly reject. They have no choice, they are forced into it, ergo, they are little slaves.

God did not create men as servants, slaves, and robots.

God created man in God's image as a companion to God,and He elevates man to "Children" of God if they follow Him.

So, if you say to me, "Do you worship my God," and your God is an enslaver,and a game player - nope, I don't.

I worship the God of Creation. The great Yahweh, the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, who is loving, holy, full of mercy, slow to anger, long suffering, who is just, and who says he is impartial, and who says that he desires that no man perish. I worship a God that loved us so much He sent His son to die for us, not a God that, before Adam was born, made a list of people to send to hell.

Look at the Tulip:

1) Total hereditary depravity: Man is born into sin and thus the sins of the father are passed to the child.

I have no problem with that. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

2) Unconditional election. God has a master list of those who will be allowed to recieve the message of Grace and they will be spared. God has a master list of who will be condemned to hell, and He doesn't even offer grace to them.

THIS is a "mean, cruel God that does things randomly."

This also contradicts scripture in verses that I have posted, over and over and have yet to hear a Calvinist respond to without saying that the verses don't "really" mean what they say.

3) Limited Atonement. Christ did NOT die for everyone, He only died for a few "special people."

Total Blaspheme against Christ.

4) Irresistable Grace: If you ended up on the saved list, you got to go to heaven, and when the Holy Spirit showed up and knocked at your door, you didn't get to open or close the door. He just barrelled his way in, pushed you out of His way and said, "You, come with me, you're going to heaven.

Total blashpheme. God said, "I stand at the door and knock, and if anyman answer...."

God said, "If you believe on ..."

God said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

The bible says he sends the message of grace unto salvation to all men.


5) Perseverence of the Saints - Scriptural. "No man can snatch you out of the hands of God." "If Christ dwells within you,..."

Two out of five points are scriptural.
Three out of five points contradict scripture.

Those same three out of five points paint the image of a cruel game playing God.

 

Hi Bob;
Who is it that the Lord doesn't know? Good or Bad. Doesn't He know us all? Didn't He create us everyone. Well except for the clones maybe.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

The question was not about what Calvinism teaches. We can discuss that at another time if you like. The question I asked is this - what difference does it make what you prefer God to be like? You have yet to address that question.

 

Hello Bob.
It's a shame I cannot understand you Bob.
Seperated by a common language you seem to me to talk in riddles at best.
Like when we claim election is election, to select. Like we believe the destiny of men are predetermined because of the simple word predestine. That we believe our Redeemer redeemed us or our Saviour saved us or our atoning sacrifice atoned for us. Like that Bob?

That's what I said.

I'll check out with NASA if any fish were on board any of the moonshots. I know they have orbited the world, that is the planet, as part of a scientific experiments. Bit off topic though I think.
But chance was an opportunity.

john.

 

Look at something a moment:

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Which God is loving? The one who decides before the dawn of time who goes to hell and who doesn't, and only sends the message of grace to the "good" list? Or the one who knows that all men deserve hell, and sends a savior for all men, and allows men to choose Christ or reject Christ?

The bible defines the characteristics of love, and in doing so, by default, describe the characteristics of God.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Substitute the name of God in those verses where you read love, and ask yourself if a God that randomly sends people to hell without even offering them salvation, then sends Christ to the cross, saying He is there for all men, but really only meaning, He is there for some men, fits that ...

OR.....

Does a God who knows all men deserve hell, and sends His son to die for them, and says, "Here, this is my gift of love and grace, please, take it," to all men, and waits with patience for them to repent fit the description of God?

 

Chance was an opportunity?
Do you mean "If you have a chance, you have the opportunity"?

Fish go to school all their life, and about the only chance of any of them orbiting the earth is in the form of a packaged meal! They will never do it on their own. In fact, when it rains, it doesn't rain fish, who's normal environment is water, it rains cats and dogs, who's normal environment is dry land!

 

You have some serious issues to work through. Of course God is love. Is that all that God is, though? How is it loving to know that if you create certain ones that they will reject Christ and choose eternal damnation instead, and yet you create them anyway?

And you still did not answer the question.

 

Hello Wes.

Bob wanted 'chance' defined but 'chance' was not meant 'oppotunity' was.

john.

 

The Five Points of Calvinism

Humankind is spiritually Totally incapacitated by Sin

God chooses (elects) Unconditionally those who will be saved

The saving work of Christ is Limited to those elected ones

God's is grace is Irresistible and cannot be turned aside

Perseverance of the saints, those whom God elects in Christ are saved forever

These five points have been reduced to an acronym as follows: TULIP describing the so called “five points of Calvinism": Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the saints.

Calvinism is much more involved than just these five points, but they form a basis of the rest. Actually, it is Points 2 and 5 that form the basis of Calvinism and every thing else must be molded to fit the framework of those two propositions.

Since these five points were originally the five remonstrances of the Armenian’s at the Council of Dort, we have to use them as they were negated by the Council of Dort in upholding the Calvinist position.

The First Point of Calvinism says that humankind is spiritually incapacitated by Sin. As far as this statement goes it cannot be denied because the bible teaches “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked : who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9) But if this tenet is taken to mean the total depravity of mankind to the degree that he cannot seek God in his own power, then it can be demonstrated to be false both empirically and Scripturally.

In Paul’s sermon to the Athenians he taught that God has determined that all men should seek the Lord. “24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands: 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” (Acts 17:24-28) Since God has determined that all men should seek the Lord by groping for him, (if haply they might feel after him) it cannot be that mankind is so spiritually depraved that he cannot do what God has determined he will do.

If mankind is so totally depraved spiritually that he cannot seek God in his own power, if he cannot look at the Creation and be driven to the conclusion that there must be a Creator, then God has made a mistake because that would mean the scriptures are wrong where they say “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen.” And the scripture would also be wrong that says these invisible things of the God are being “understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead.” And the scriptures would be wrong that says for these reason that man does not have an excuse for not seeking god. If mankind is so totally depraved spiritually that he cannot read the message of the Creation, then David was wrong and the message in the Heavens is not heard by every speech and language, and their line has not gone out into all the world. We must choose Scripture over what man says even if it should make “every man a liar.”

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof." (Ps. 19:1-6)

Since there is "no speech or language" where the "voice" of the creation is not heard, it cannot be true that unregenerated mankind does not have a capacity within himself to at least hear the message that the Creator placed in the Creation to point men to himself. As already noted, the Scriptures say, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

So we see that what the Bible teaches is that it is only after men reject the message about the Creator that is taught to them by the Creation that they become totally depraved. This is what has happened, by and large, to western civilization today in that, having rejected the message of the creation and opting for the unreasonable, irrational postulates of Evolution and materialism, and Humanism, most have had their foolish hearts darkened and are going into depravity in every facet of life. Professing themselves to wise, they have become fools, and now while they call themselves "enlightened" they are children of darkness.

Both the Old and the New Testaments say that men should be driven to worship the Creator by reason of His Creation, but if they do not, Rom. 1:20 says that God then darkens their foolish hearts so that they will not afterward seek him. If they were already totally depraved before this there would be no reason, nor would it be possible, to darken their hearts further.

In the verse quoted previously from Acts 17:24-31 the Apostle Paul says that even some of the Greek poets (philosophers) had come to the same conclusion as that taught in the Gospel: that "in him we live, and move, and have our being." Observation declares that even men in an unregenerated condition do seek a god. To be sure God must reveal himself in some fashion if men are ever to find the one true God. It would appear then, that man, even though he is depraved by sin, is still able to seek God and even receive some inspiration about him.

This does not mean that we are not dependent upon the conviction of the Holy Spirit before we can come to the Lord Jesus Christ. It just means that Calvinism is in error in the assertion that men are so totally depraved that they cannot seek God in their own power. Man, even lost man, can seek God, and God has said that he will justify those who will seek him because of the message in the Creation and follow the law that he has written in their hearts and upon their consciences. “(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law , do by nature the things contained in the law , these, having not the law , are a law unto themselves : 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ” (Rom. 2:13-15)

Empirically it is evident that all false religions are evidence that unregenerated mankind can, and does, seek after a god. Man is by nature a religious creature and must be “educated” away from that nature before he stops seeking a god.

The second point of TULIP says that God chooses (elects) unconditionally those who will be saved. The reason the word “unconditionally” was used in this point was to assert that God’s election is not based upon his foreknowledge of who will believe, which is what the Arminianists declared. It is this proposition that is the heart of the disagreement between Calvinism and Arminianism, and having put the issue to rest in the first part of this article we will go on to Point 3.

The “L” in “TULIP” comes from the statement that the saving work of Christ is limited to His elect. Calvinists call this ‘limited atonement.” By this they mean that Christ’s atonement is limited to only those whom God has predestinated. There is no quarrel with this statement when it is agreed that God bases his predestination upon His foreknowledge as the scriptures say he does. “29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Rom. 8:29-30) If it could be stated any plainer that God predestinated those whom he foreknew I do not see how. Once again the Calvinist position is against predestination being based upon God’s foreknowledge of who would believe because faith is a gift from God. But that is not what God has based his predestination upon. Instead of basing it upon His foreknowledge of who will believe, god has based predestination upon those who will call upon the name of the lord because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit who is being poured out upon all flesh. Once it is seen that predestination is based upon God’s foreknowledge of who will call upon the name of the Lord at the conviction of the Holy Spirit, all controversy dissolves. Christ’s atonement is efficacious to all who have called who call upon the name of the Lord. What is meant by “calling upon the name of the Lord is another topic.

Calvinists say that God's grace cannot be turned aside. By this they mean that the Spirit’s calling of a person is Irresistible. The “I” in TULIP comes from Irresistible. Calvinists say that once the Spirit convicts a person, they will not be able to resist His call. If this is so, how then is it, that everyone has not been saved? For as we have already noted, the Holy Spirit is being poured out upon all flesh to convict them of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. If this conviction is irresistible, all flesh should be saved. Either the 4th Point of Calvinism is in error or the scripture is wrong.

“13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.” (Rom. 10:13-18)

Since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and since the sound of the gospel has been heard unto the ends of the world, how is it that some have stayed unbelievers if the grace of God is irresistible? It is obvious that some can resist the grace of God.

The “P” in TULIP comes from Perseverance of the saints. The last point of Calvinism says that those whom God elects in Christ are saved forever. This proposition has been stated as “once saved, always saved.” “Once saved, always saved” is the logical conclusion of Calvinist understanding of Predestination. This position is more contrary to scripture than all of the rest combined, but because of their belief that God’s grace is irresistible, and that his election is based upon his will exclusively, they have no choice but to assert that those whom God has saved cannot become unsaved.

What does scripture have to say about this? “21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness : otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.” (Rom. 11:21-23) There is no reason for the Apostle Paul to have warned the Romans to take heed to themselves if they could not have been cut off again from the goodness of God. But Romans 11: 22 is very clear that in order to keep from being cut off we have to remain in God’s goodness. It is also manifest that remaining in God’s goodness is a choice that is made by the individual.

The “Day of the Lord” cannot come in Calvinist doctrine, for the scripture clearly says that the day of the Lord will not occur before a falling away has first occurred. “3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” (2 Thess. 2:3) The word translated as “falling away” is “apostasia.” “Apostasia” means “forsaking or desertion.” The only other time the word “apostasia” appears in the New Testament is in Acts 21:21 where the Apostle Paul is accused by the Jews of teaching the Jews among the Gentiles to “forsake” Moses. “And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses , saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Charles E. “Red” Chamberlain

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I never said God was 'just love'. In fact, I specifically related some of His other traits.

Holy, Just, Patient, ....

To answer the second question.

It is very loving.

I love my children.
I teach my children what I believe is best for them.
I allow them to grow.
I allow them to make choices.
I let them know I love them, and I hope they will return my love.

What you describe is not even bothering to save them. What you describe is just writing them off at birth, and going, "You know, I don't care that you're going to hell. I don't love you."

What you describe is NOT God.

You have YET to address issues of scripture that say God sends His message of grace to all men.

You have yet to address issues of scripture that say God desires that none perish, and that God wants all to be saved.

You have yet to address issues of scripture that say God stands at the door and knocks.

And again, yes, I answered the question. You just can't see it. I had a response put out in very simplistic terms, but I erased it. I want you to go back and read my answer, and think about it. The answer is there.

 

You have some serious issues to work through. Of course God is love. Is that all that God is, though? How is it loving to know that if you create certain ones that they will reject Christ and choose eternal damnation instead, and yet you create them anyway?

And you still did not answer the question. </font>[/QUOTE]It sounds like you are the one with the issues. First, you can't agree doctrinally with another calvinist on key points of your false doctrine, and now you claim God is more than love? What are you implying, that God is hate also? Calvinism leads to that with the famed "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated..." which totally contradicts "God is love". Scripture CANNOT contradict Itself. So what is the REAL meaning of "hated"?

 

But you did not create your children, and you did not know from the beginning that they would not return your love. That is a very different situation. God knows thatthe lost will never return His love. They will never repent. Why is it more loving to allow them to suffer eternal damnation than to not create them in the first place?

Where did I describe anything like that? I think that you think that I am saying things that I am not saying.

You are correct, I cannot see it. Would you show it to me?

 

Again, this is FOREKNOWLEGE AND NOT PREDESTINATION or God created men to be evil and bound for hell!

 

So people who claim to be Calvinists disagree with each other on key points of doctrine. That should be no surprise. People who claim to be Baptists disagree on key points of doctrine. So do people who claim to be Arminians. This proves nothing, especially sine I do not know which key points of doctrine you think I disagree with other Calvinists on.

Second, I am not implying anything. I am saying that the view of God that TexasSky holds is too small. So is my view of God. So is yours. None of us is capable of holding a big enough view of God.

 

Whatever,

How can you not see that you are describing a farce?

Even John Calvin didn't agree with Cavinism as it is currently taught.

"No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."

And in regards to "what difference does it make." God is either what He describes Himself to be in His holy word, and therefore IS God, or He is NOT God, but just a liar. God MUST fit the characteristics that He attributes to Himself, or He is a liar. If He is a liar, He is not God.

We were told by Christ to test the spirits. The only way to test them is to compare them to what God tells us. If the image of God being taught does NOT fit with scripture, the image is WRONG.

As Christians we have GOT to look at the nature of God, especially before following teachers, and ask, "Does what I'm being told fit with scripture? Does it fit the nature of God? Does it "fit" what I KNOW to be true."

Calvinism doesn't fit what I know to be true, it contradicts scriptures, it contradicts the nature of God as God described Himself to be.

Ergo - it is a flawed doctorine.

And to take it a step further, it is a dangerous one. To tell men, "It doesn't matter if you accept Christ or not, whether you go to heaven or hell was decided before the world was formed," is speaking against Christ and against the Holy Spirit because they say it DOES matter.

They say God desires all men be saved, and they say the message of grace went to all, and they say the condition of Grace is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Sure, the two are distinct but they are not separate. Those whom God foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Still, how is it love to create a being that you know will be eternally damned? Why is that more loving than never creating the being at all?

 

Whatever,

God predestined that those who follow Christ will become the children of God and the elect.

He did not pre-destine who those will be.

 

Whatver,

Do you believe a man must make a personal committment to the Lord Jesus Christ?

Do you believe a man must confess Christ with His mouth?

Do you believe man SHOULD follow Him in baptism?

To all of these, whatever your answer is - why, why, and why?

 

While scanning this forum I saw many that seem to jump from forum to forum holding logic as their God, and trashing the Bible.

This to me, would seem a worthless goal and reminds me of Paul as he said...Claiming to be wise, they became fools. Tis true that this verse speaks directly of man as he turns from God and worships other things. However one could make a point that this can be applied to worshipping mans own wisdom. With all the logic flying around in here, i feel it would serve each of you better to back your points with the Word of God and not the logic of man. Systematic theology can be very helpful, but only to the extent it does not hold more logic then the Word.

I challenge each of you to get into the word of God on your own and hold firm to its teachings rather then those of man. The logic of man will crash in the weight of the truth.


In Christ...James

 

Again, where did I describe anything? You keep arguing against things that I have not said.

"No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."

Amen! I agree completely!

That is not Calvinism. Period.