Is predestination disturbing?

[johnp.]

Hello whatever.

Everyone does have the chance to repent of their sin.

The scripture testifys to the fact that we cannot not, it is not 'will not' we will not because we cannot.
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

But why would a sinner ever want to turn from their sin?

He cannot the question cannot be asked but we were not always Christian.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by David Ekstrom:
Calvinists reply: "He did it for His own glory." That's true but that's not enough. God's glory is the final cause but there's an intermediate cause in there that is not revealed in Scripture. Why Jones and why not Smith? Some Calvinists imply that God's election was arbitrary. I'm not at all comfortable with that.
To me, Calvinism is at its best when it says, "We don't know.

In fact lets be honest - Calvinism claims you MUST NOT be able to point to ANY difference between Smith and Jones as the ATTRIBUTE that would MAKE God pick Smith and not Jones! Calivnism is adamant on this point.

This is the poster child for the term "Arbitrary".

Matt 7 then becomes "The Arbitrary selection of the FEW over the Many".

Yet God says "GOD so LOVED the WORLD" and "God sent His Son to be the Savior OF THE WORLD" 1John 4:10 not "WILLING for ANY to Perish" convicting the "WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" CALL all men everywhere to repentance. He says I STAND at the DOOR and knock so that IF ANYONE hears His voice AND opens the door He WILL come IN.

The list goes on - and on - and on.

A bunch of "false marketing ads" according to Calvinism -- "unless you are willing to edit and redefine terms".

On the other hand - what if those statement are simply "TRUE" and ALSO the statement of Romans 2 that GOD IS NOT partial (not even for INNEXPLICABLE reasons) to the FEW!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[OCC]

"God is sincere, but man left to himself has no desire towards God. Apart from intervention, none would come to Him"

Hey Bob, thanks for your reply. But this statement above proves my point. Apart from intervention none would come to Him means, the ones who don't turn not just don't want to, they can't. If it takes God's intervention, then for Him not to intervene means He doesn't want them to turn to Him. See what I'm sayin?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello whatever.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Everyone does have the chance to repent of their sin.

The scripture testifys to the fact that we cannot not, it is not 'will not' we will not because we cannot.
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.</font>[/QUOTE]Hello johnp,

Of course Rom. 8:7 is true, but there are many things that we have opportunity to do, even the obligation to do, although we do not have the ability to do them. God commands all men everywhere to repent but that does not mean that everyone is able to repent. If you do not distinguish between obligation and ability then you will end up Arminian.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
I do believe God is sincere, but man left to himself has no desire towards God. Apart from intervention, none would come to Him

True. And this is why "God DRAWS ALL mankind to Himself" John 12:32. This why God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". This is why Christ stands at the door and knocks so that mankind having been convicted AND ENABLED via that drawing can CHOOSE to open the door and let Him in.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote: Whatever said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone does have the chance to repent of their sin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Define "Chance".

Is it "chance" as in "A fish has the CHANCE to fly into space and orbit the moon"??

What do you mean by "chance"??

(Never trust a Calvinist' use of a simple word when "REdefining words" is always in play)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello whatever.

Everyone does have the chance to repent of their sin.

So when you said chance you meant oppotunity?
If yes then not all get the oppotunity do they? Not all hear the word.

End up Arminian? Well Nixon went to China!

john.

 

[OCC]

"God commands all men everywhere to repent but that does not mean that everyone is able to repent. If you do not distinguish between obligation and ability then you will end up Arminian."

And I'm proud to be an Arminian...
cuz at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the Lamb who died...
for you and me...and Johnp....

everybody....

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by King James:
Apart from intervention none would come to Him means, the ones who don't turn not just don't want to, they can't. If it takes God's intervention, then for Him not to intervene means He doesn't want them to turn to Him. See what I'm sayin?

Hello King (or should I say Hail King!),

How about this:

1) God wants all men to turn to Him on their own. He even commands this.

2) No one will turn to God on their own.
</font>

• This is not because God will not let them.</font>
• This is because their sin will not let them.</font>

3) God intervenes on behalf of some men, removing their sin problem so that they will certainly turn to Him.

That is one answer to the problem that you pose.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

King James,

Yes, I think I understand. You mentioned before, about this passage from Romans. I think it applies regarding all people, about why one is chosen to salvation and another is not. God is love, and God is full of mercy. That is not to be denied, but there are two attributes to be considered, the one is divine mercy and the other divine justice. Were there none that were passed over, if all were saved, then His mercy would not be so evident. God is just, and makes no mistake regarding divine justice. God is worthy to be feared. We are no better than those left to perish. We were all children of wrath, but God is rich in mercy (Ps 103).

Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by johnp.:
So when you said chance you meant oppotunity?
If yes then not all get the oppotunity do they? Not all hear the word.

Yes - opportunity. If what you say is true then why are all without excuse?

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

(Never trust a Calvinist' use of a simple word when "REdefining words" is always in play)

Like when we claim election is election, to select. Like we believe the destiny of men are predetermined because of the simple word predestine. That we believe our Redeemer redeemed us or our Saviour saved us or our atoning sacrifice atoned for us. Like that Bob?

john.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by King James:
And I'm proud to be an Arminian...

King James,

There is that judicial aspect to consider. Is is grace, or is it instead judicial?

 

[TexasSky]

Whatever -

God's revelation of Himself is not a mean, cruel God that randomly decides who can and who cannot come to Him.

God saw the sin of Cain and protected him from the wrath of others. That isn't a randomly mean God.

God saw a world of sin around Noah, and did not randomly destroy the earth. He saved the righteous.

God saw excessive sin in Sodom and Gommorah and wanted to wipe them out, and stayed His hand while Lot looked for righteous men.

God saw the people of Israel, who He had favored with calling them His People, who He had just freed from slavery, turn on Him and build a Golden Calf, and He didn't wipe them out. He called them back to repentence.

God saw David, who He favored and loved dearly, commit adultery and then to hide his adultery, commit murder, and God forgave Him, and still stated that the messiah would come from that line.

God saw a world full of wickedness and evil and sent Christ.

This is a God who TELLS us, in very plain language, that He loves us, sinners or not.

This is God who sacrificed Himself for us.

This is a God who TELLS us, in very plain english, He desires that all men be saved, and that all repent so that none will perish.

This is a God who TELLS us, that the grace unto savlation is offered to all.

This isn't the God presented by rigid Calvinists who say, "You can't accept God unless God allows you to." And the picture of a cruel God who dangles a carrot to men is not the God the bible paints.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
And I'm proud to be an Arminian...

King James,

There is that judicial aspect to consider. Is is grace, or is it instead judicial?

</font>[/QUOTE]Don't know Bob...was just trying to lighten it up here.

 

[johnp.]

Hello whatever.

If what you say is true then why are all without excuse?

A very good question I believe! Why indeed?

I did in fact ask this question but at the time 'who are to talk back to God' did not seem like a good enough answer so I thought I'd find out!
Prudence does not live here. I found out what chastisement means and I'm all the better for it. Still a bit short on prudence but I've heard she's a very nice girl.

I like Romans 9:
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

john.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Whatever -

God's revelation of Himself is not a mean, cruel God that randomly decides who can and who cannot come to Him. ...

I did read the rest of your post, but this is enough to respond to.

First off, no Calvinist claims that God is mean or cruel or that He does anything randomly. You misunderstand our doctrine if that is what you think. You are arguing against something besides Calvinism.

Second, there is much more to God's revelation of Himself than what you listed. I still think that it is your preferences that are driving your list.

Third, you didn't answer the question.

 

[BobRyan]

(Never trust a Calvinist' use of a simple word when "REdefining words" is always in play)

"All have a CHANCE to repent"???

As in "Fish have a CHANCE to orbit the moon"??

Calvinists - please define "chance".

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello Bob.
Like when we claim election is election, to select.

Indeed. "Arbitrary Selection" = "election".

Nice of you to pick up on that.

JohnP
Like we believe the destiny of men are predetermined because of the simple word predestine.

Romans 8 "PREDESTINED to BECOME CONFORMED to the image of His son"

What "other kind" of predestination were "you" defining????

And of course the question to dodge if Calvinist - Does God have ABSOLUTE foreknowledge as He say "AS MANY AS He foreknew HE predestined"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by johnp.:
I like Romans 9:

I like Romans 9 too. The rest of Romans is very good too.

What I was getting at, of course, is Paul's argument in Romans 1 that, even if some never hear the gospel per se, God has still revealed enough of Himself to them that they should repent. But they do not.

"For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

There are no atheists, no agnostics either. There are only unrepentent sinners, until God acts.