Is predestination disturbing?

I believe that it is God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." But, God doesn't force anyone to accept His free gift of salvation. As the Holy Spirit convicts, God allows man to choose wether or not to respond to that conviction. Those who choose to respond to that conviction and come to repentance become part of the elect, those who reject the Holy Spirit do not. While God may know who will accept and who will reject, it doesn't change that fact that those people had a free-will to make the choice.

Our simple human minds may not understand how God can know who will accept His gift of salvation and who will reject it, all the while allowing them to make the choice, just like our simple human minds don't fully understand eternity, the trinity, etc. Just becuase we can't understand God's mind, doesn't change the facts, we can't use any "doctrine" to try to make the complex things of God easier for our simple human minds.

 

Hello Pastor Larry.

Might be alive wrong but not dead wrong!

Thanks for the label! Proud to wear it. A black sheep at worst or best yet I am a sheep nevertheless.


Hello dianetavegia.

My stand would be more in line with what an Arminian believes Calvinism is rather than a Calvinist believes Calvinism is, possibly.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

In that statement, spoken of in Romans nine, God determines, in His Sovereignty, to harden Pharaoh's heart and causes Pharaoh to disobey a command of God. God is first cause of sin with Pharaoh. The reason given in Romans nine is that this happened so that God could show His power over man. He created Pharaoh for this express purpose, to destroy him in full public gaze.
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

In hardening the heart of Pharaoh God caused Pharaoh to sin by disobeying His command and then Pharaoh gets it in the neck for disobeying God and who am I to talk back to God?

john.

 

God turned them against Him, correct, by not choosing them as the prechosen elect? So their sinning is not really their choice.</font>[/QUOTE]Diane,

All of us by nature are sinners, turned against God, and by nature we all freely sin. God turns some of us back to Himself.

Consider Romans 8:20-21:

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God."

First, who was it that subjected all of creation to futility, in hope of some day setting it free? I think there is only one possible answer.

Second, why would he do so against the will of creation? That one is worth thinking about for a while.

As for your last statement, I do not think it follows. I cannot think of a single sin that I have ever committed that I did not choose. It may have been a reluctant choice, or maybe it was not a conscious choice, but still in each instance I chose to sin rather than to not sin. The same is true of the non-elect. I cannot think of a single instance of any sin, in the Bible or out, which was not the choice of the sinner. But maybe there is - can you think of one?

 

David,

I think you are right on. There is nothing wimpy about saying "I don't know". God has not revealed to us why He is pleased to elect one to salvation and not another, and we will not likely guess, and even if we did guess we cannot know whether we are right. So "I don't know" is the best answer we can give when we truly do not know.

 

Hello David.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. Eph 1:7-8.

A could not is a denial of God's Sovereign power. He chose not to save those that are not saved. I will have mercy on whoever I want He says, and compassion on whoever I want.
That God wants to reveal His glory causes men to go to Hell not sin. No one goes to Hell because of sin but because God chose that for them. I am no different from Judas and there but for the grace of God go I but He chose me with all wisdom and understanding for glory.


Hello whatever.

Then why does God still blame us falls.
But I think concentrating on what we do rather than what we are is a mistake. We are sinners. We accumulate wrath as we sleep.
We were created sinners at conception and as sinners we sin. Why does God still blame us for who resists His will.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Adam blew it for us? God has bound all men over, why does He still blame us?

john.

 

Diane Replied: God turned them against Him, correct, by not choosing them as the prechosen elect? So their sinning is not really their choice.

To Whatever... You chose sin, have a sinful nature, because of the way you were created; the fall of Adam and Eve.

To not allow you the chance to repent of said sin, turn to God and accept the blood sacrifice freely given for the sins of the world is beyond my comprehension!

Thanks in advance for your response. I'll check back later.

Diane

 

This doesn't even sound like pre-selection, pre-election or predestination. I am very confused. It sounds like pre-knowledge of what their choice would eventually be, which is what I believe foreknew means. </font>[/QUOTE]Bumping so this doesn't get lost.

Looking forward to our discussion tonight when you have a chance to better explain your meaning of the above.

Thanks!
Diane

 

Man is free to make any kind of choice he or she chooses to make. The problem is man will only make the choices he or she wants to make BUT NOT make the choice God wants him or her to make. Humanity has a Self Will not a Free Will. It is only when the Holy Spirit intervenes and regenerates man that a sinner can make the right choice.

 

Bro. Joe stated,

Amen!!

 

Hello Kiffen.

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Calvinists want it both ways. They want God to be Sovereign without dirty hands. That causes God to be not Sovereign and invalidates the question, 'Why does God still blame us?'.

john.

 

Hi john

Nope, most Calvinists admit there is a paradox and a mystery when it comes to election and whosoever will may come. A Calvinist admits both are true and does not seek to reconcile them. To make God the author of sin is to embrace hypercalvinism and contradicts scripture that is clear Satan is the author of sin. Of course God is sovereign in all this but unlike the hypercalvinists, Calvinists do not try to use puny human logic to say God must be the author of sin.

hypercalvinists in calling God the author of sin (which is blasphemy) and Arminians trying to make Salvation a human choice use human logic to explain such things when the nature of God is beyound human logic.

 

This will be quick, and then I will be probably busy for the rest of the day. Sorry ... My answer to that is that God did not turn them against Him. They were turned against him from conception. God simply didn't change that. Their sinning is their choice. They can stop and turn to God at any time they so desire. They are not "willing" to turn to God, and so God simply lets them do what they want to do. He does not do that for his elect. He is under no obligation to do it for anyone. He would be perfectly just to let people go their own way and go to hell.

 

Those who believe in preelection reply that God's thoughts are unsearchable, and that the unanswered questions that pre-election/ predestination/ pre-selection has, for example divine election and human responsibility, exhaustive sovereignty and human free will, and God's having two contradictory wills, reply, "well that's a mystery."

If predestionationists can use the term 'mystery', why can't those of us who believe in free will answer with the same 'nobody understands' type answer?

 

Hello Kiffen.

Why does God still blame us for who resists His will? His will.

That Satan was the first to exhibit sin does not in itself make him the author of it. To contradict scripture you will have to believe that 'Why does God still blame us for who resists His will?' is a non-question for it is our fault.

What the Arminians want is for Calvinists to look extreme so if they call us Hyper it hinders our message. Calvinists that lay the blame at the door of man or some sort of cooperation they, the Arminians, want you to look good so they can bash you better and pour contempt on those who are called extremist who believe the 'Why does He blame us'.
They will go for your contradiction that God can be Sovereign while at the same time others make choices. Sovereignty cannot be taken too far or it is not Sovereignty. That's my problem.
It is not puny human logic to accept the question is it? It is not hyper to think that God wants us to ask that question, Why does God still blame us for who resists His will?, because when you ask that question seriously by yourself then you know you have the right doctrine.

john.

 

John,

I don't know that I am really an Arminian. What I am is a Christian who reading God's word finds that Calvinism contradicts a tremendously large volume of scripture.

 

King David, a man after God's own heart, said: When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

So do I understand you to say we ALL were turned against God from conception but God chose to 'fix' some so that they could obtain salvation and left others for damnation?

How can WE know, then, no matter how nice a person we are or how we believe we are saved, that we are one of the elect and not just genetically an emotionally reachable and really nice damned to hell person? Couldn't there be some who are touched by the salvation message but not chosen for salvation? This scenario sounds like Primitive Baptist reasoning.

 

"Satan is the author of sin."

How so? God created him perfect in all his ways.

 

"They can stop and turn to God at any time they so desire. They are not "willing" to turn to God,..."

I disagree. If God doesn't choose them, they CAN'T turn to God. It has nothing to do with being willing. This is the way it HAS to be if Calvinism is true. I grow weary of this kind of double speak from Calvinists.