Is predestination disturbing?

[dianetavegia]

Diane had steadfastly refused to tell us what God meant when he said that he "chose us to salvation."

I have not seen that remark. Can you give me scripture? It doesn't come up under KJV or NKJV as an exact quote.

Now.... I'll be offline for a while. Time for the Youth Pastor to pick up his 3 and another dad to pick up one, my 28 year old needs supper before work and hubby hopes to be home in time to cut the backyard before a rain. Please post the scripture link for me and I'll respond.

Diane

 

[dianetavegia]

Unless you're refering to Eph. 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world," where in context it goes on to say Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Pastor Larry]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Your Ephesians 1:4 is bad exegesis because you skip from place to place. Deal with it in order. And notice how v. 13 is addressing trusting, not election. Election precedes belief, as 2 Thess 2:13 says.

 

[rc]

What came FIRST Diane? Your choosing the Gospel or God chosing you BEFORE THE EARTH?

Philippians 1:29 For it has been GRANTED to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only BELIEVE...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not DESTINED US for wrath, but to OBTAIN SALVATION.

1 Peter 2:8 They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

DESTINY. Oh great destiny. Notice who is the SUBJECT? The one WHO DESTINES? ... God. He destines those for Salvation and those to stumble.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Chose us to salvation.... ???

In Context:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.


So the unelect refuses to love the truth and be saved, when predestination reasoning says God determines that the unelect can't love the truth, can't be saved, and therefore doesn't refuse God at all?

 

[Pastor Larry]

That doesn't sound like an answer to me. It sounds like an attempt to avoid the teaching of the verse by raising a logical objection (rather than a biblical one). Your "predestination reasoning" is not based on the Scriptures it seems, but rather on your reasoning (or others who have taught you). I am not sure that is the best way to do theology. We should certainly use our reasoning, but not to explain away Scripture.

The unelect refuse to love the truth and be saved. That is correct. But God didn't determine that. Their sin determined it. Remember that in Calvinism, man is kept from God only by his own willing sin. There are a few Calvinists who disagree, but most do not. The sinner rejects God. As Christ put it, you will not come to me so that you may have life. God is not preventing anyone from coming. All who are willing may come.

 

[OCC]

Larry, Calvinists use reasoning in their arguments as well. I dont know how many times I've heard "can a man dead in sin, believe?".

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by rc:
What came FIRST Diane? Your choosing the Gospel or God chosing you BEFORE THE EARTH?

Philippians 1:29 For it has been GRANTED to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only BELIEVE...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not DESTINED US for wrath, but to OBTAIN SALVATION.

1 Peter 2:8 They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

DESTINY. Oh great destiny. Notice who is the SUBJECT? The one WHO DESTINES? ... God. He destines those for Salvation and those to stumble.

DESTINY means something that is destined to happen, THE FINAL OUTCOME. Faith comes by HEARING and HEARING from the Word! The verses you cite prove nothing in your favor, rather, the opposite when used in context.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, Calvinists use reasoning in their arguments as well. I dont know how many times I've heard "can a man dead in sin, believe?"

As I said, We should certainly use our reasoning, but not to explain away Scripture.

 

[rc]

Mark 4:11-12 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables : 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted , and their sins should be forgiven them.

John 8:43-44 43 "Why do you not understand (1a)what I am saying? It is because you cannot (b)hear My word. 44 (a)"You are of (b)your father the devil, and (c)you want to do the desires of your father.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 3 And even if our (a)gospel is (b)veiled, it is veiled (1)to c)those who are perishing , 4 in whose case (a) the god of (b)this (1)world has c) blinded the minds of the unbelieving , (2)that they might not see the (d)light of the gospel of the (e)glory of Christ, who is the (f)image of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But (1)a (a) natural man (b) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God ; for they are (c)foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them , because they are spiritually (2)appraised.

NNE SEEKS AFTER GOD NO, NOT ONE.

 

[BobRyan]

quoteiane said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, if Calvinism is right, God MADE Eve take the fruit and MADE Adam follow her in sin so God could torture and kill His only Son on a cross for THAT sin which God forced upon Adam and Eve. Right?

Again, that makes God the author of evil.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact this is EXACTLY what JohnP says about God -- "HE is the author of evil". John calls God "The great despot"!!

Interesting that NO Calvinist would oppose that statement on Calvinism!!

Pastor Larry said --

Very few Calvinists say any of these things. It is hard to carry on a conversation when people insist on talking about something that no one actually believes

eerr - uhmmm except when an ARMINIAN observes a Calvinist SAYING it - oh THEN they want to deny it!!

How wonderfully "unnexpected".

The "shell game" of Calvinism just keeps on going-and-going-and going!!

Notice even in Larry's response he goes from "FEW" to "NNE says this"!!

The shell game "switch" right in the MIDDLE of his post!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[rc]

Again, that makes God the author of evil

You do not understand combatiblism at all do you Bob. Evil isn't a "thing" it is a motive.

God's motive for Eve's action was not evil. It was to serve His purpose, for His glory.

Eve's motivation was NOT for God's glory. It was evil.

Romans 9:19-23 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

If Paul meant God will judge you and you have total free will and you will go to HEAVEN because of YOUR choice and will go to hell because of your choice and God has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, why would he anticipate the question? ... It would never COME UP...

But it does doesn't it, because man doesn't want to be in the hands of the potter. He wants a say in where he is DESTINED.... But scripture states GOD is in control and you are not and you are held responsible FOR YOUR MOTIVES.

 

[dianetavegia]

Pastor Larry, I'm VERY confused by these remarks and would like to ask you to explain it to me. (NOT making a joke but being totally honest.) I'll check in later to see if you've had the time to answer.

You said a few posts up:

The unelect refuse to love the truth and be saved.

But God didn't determine that. Their sin determined it.

Remember that in Calvinism, man is kept from God only by his own willing sin.

There are a few Calvinists who disagree, but most do not.

The sinner rejects God. As Christ put it, you will not come to me so that you may have life.

God is not preventing anyone from coming. All who are willing may come.

This doesn't even sound like pre-selection, pre-election or predestination. I am very confused. It sounds like pre-knowledge of what their choice would eventually be, which is what I believe foreknew means.

 

[johnp.]

I was hoping someone would let me in thanks Bob.

In fact this is EXACTLY what JohnP says about God -- "HE is the author of evil". John calls God "The great despot"!!

Of course I wll not ask you to prove that I said "HE is the author of evil". I am glad to see you nibbling around the hook again I thought I lost you!

I am one of the few Pastor Larry mentions.

Hello dianetavegia.

Diane said

I know and I nearly joined in but I thought I would not unless prodded and prodded I have been. Awfully grateful Bob old boy don't yer know?

But, if Calvinism is right, God MADE Eve take the fruit and MADE Adam follow her in sin so God could torture and kill His only Son on a cross for THAT sin which God forced upon Adam and Eve. Right?

Right. But God has the key to our hearts He does not use force but controls our will. He alone is Sovereign nothing can happen unless the Lord does it. He is not here for us we are here for Him. The end justifies the means and the means employed by God cannot be evil even if they are very unpleasant to the ear. The end is the glory of God! The chief end of man is to glorify God.

But, if Calvinism is right, God MADE Eve take the fruit and MADE Adam follow her in sin so God could torture and kill His only Son on a cross for THAT sin which God forced upon Adam and Eve. Right?

Not only right but the reason for our existence is the cross where God reveals His glory. The glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. The culmination of God's glory.

Again, that makes God the author of evil.

He created the world and the Devil did He not? Some would have God go to the cross as a thing for us but He went to the cross as a thing for Himself, to strut His stuff. No one need die but my Father wants to show His glory in wrath and to that end He created creatures of wrath just so we can see His wrath. Shocking? He is an exhibitionist and He desires us to see every facet of His glory and so He has provided a way for us to see His glory in it's fullness. Horrible? He is The Despot.
I think Calvin referred to the decree of reprobation as the horrible decree.

Back to Bob.

The "shell game" of Calvinism just keeps on going-and-going-and going!!

Warming up again are you?

My flag has "God is Sovereign" Emblazoned on it.
The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and the Despot of all Despots.

Your flag is being used to wipe noses and eyes. HaHa!

Greetings rc.

...why would he anticipate the question...

I think Paul did not so much anticipate the question rather he asked it first.

john.

 

[benz]

everyone chooses wheather they want to get to know God and follow his Son Jesus. God just happens to know who will choose him before we choose him... IM MORE THAN COMFORTED TO KNOW THIS...GOD WILL ALWAYS PROVIDE FAR BETTER THAN I COULD EVEN IMAGINE OF..this is the God Jesus I serve..

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
You said a few posts up:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The unelect refuse to love the truth and be saved.

But God didn't determine that. Their sin determined it.

Remember that in Calvinism, man is kept from God only by his own willing sin.

There are a few Calvinists who disagree, but most do not.

The sinner rejects God. As Christ put it, you will not come to me so that you may have life.

God is not preventing anyone from coming. All who are willing may come.

This doesn't even sound like pre-selection, pre-election or predestination. I am very confused. It sounds like pre-knowledge of what their choice would eventually be, which is what I believe foreknew means. </font>[/QUOTE]Remember that all sinners are turned against God and freely sin. They do exactly what they want to do. They are not seeking God. So God lets them continue to reject.

Second, with respect to foreknowledge, two points: 1) Your position on foreknowledge simply being "knowing ahead of time" doesn't solve hte problem. As I previously pointed out, since God's knowledge is eternal and perfect, no one can chooose other than God knows he will choose. That means he effectively has no free will since he cannot make the opposite choice. (This is exactly the claim that most of your side make about free will ... if they can't choose the opposite, then they aren't free. They are trapped by their own position). 2) Foreknowledge doesn't mean simply knowing ahead of time. It refers to choice such as in Rom 11:2 where Israel is "foreknown." That has to be something more than simply knowing ahead of time. It is what distinguishes Israel from everyone else. Same thing in Acts 4 about Christ's crucifixion being by the "predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God." That is not simply knowing ahead of time.

In election, God, for reasons of his own glory, chooses certain individuals for salvation without respect for anything in them or about them (ruling out theri choice of him as well). Becuase of his choice, he regenerates them or gives them a new nature so that they will respond in faith and repentance to be saved.

Does that help at all? I am writing quickly since I am under a bit of a crunch here. If not, I will try again tomorrow through it will probably be later in teh day.

 

[dianetavegia]

Let's discuss this more tomorrow. Even the first remark confuses me more.

Remember that all sinners are turned against God and freely sin

God turned them against Him, correct, by not choosing them as the prechosen elect? So their sinning is not really their choice.

When you have more time, please.....

 

[Pastor Larry]

In fact this is EXACTLY what JohnP says about God -- "HE is the author of evil". John calls God "The great despot"!!

Interesting that NO Calvinist would oppose that statement on Calvinism!!

I am not sure what I said "no calvinist" would oppose, but I am quite sure it wasn't about the author of evil. John is one who says God is the author of evil. John is in the minority of Calvinists and I think he is dead wrong. You need to be more careful about people's words and what they say. You also need to understand the role and use of rhetorical devices. Just debate. Don't nitpick.

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother David saidoes the idea of predestination scare you or comfort you?


Brother Joe: David, it gives me comfort to know my eternal destiny is in the hands of God and not dependent on mankind's fallen will.Contrary to popular belief, election is a very inclusive doctrine tht means that God through Jesus Christ will most surely bring, "many sons unto glory" (Hebrews 2:10), and in paradise there shall be ", a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes" (Rev 7:9). Knowing the nature of mankind from scripture, if eternal salvation was based on "decisional regeneration" this would most surely not be the result!


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

For those who find the doctrine of predestination disturbing, I have 2 questions:

1) Would you rather have your eternal soul in God's hand or your own?

2) Do you believe more souls would go to heaven if it is dependent on mankinds will or God's will?

Brother Joe