Is predestination disturbing?

[whatever]

Originally posted by inpeace:
thanks, i might have to re-visit my book of genesis again, i thought God instructed Noah on who he was to take onto the ark with him?

inpeace

Yep, read Genesis again, and then read my post again. Of course God instructed Noah. Then, Noah obeyed God, because he wanted to obey. And Noah's family went in as well, because they wanted to. And no one else went in. No one else wanted to. It is all right there in Genesis.

Back to the topic - is predestination disturbing to you?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by inpeace:
thanks, i might have to re-visit my book of genesis again, i thought God instructed Noah on who he was to take onto the ark with him?

inpeace

Yep, read Genesis again, and then read my post again. Of course God instructed Noah. Then, Noah obeyed God, because he wanted to obey. And Noah's family went in as well, because they wanted to. And no one else went in. No one else wanted to. It is all right there in Genesis.

Back to the topic - is predestination disturbing to you? </font>[/QUOTE]We agree in this one! Except that God found faith in Noah and it was faith that was lacking in all the others.

 

[inpeace]

got a bit side tracked there
for what it's worth, predestination is not at all disturbing to me. i don't see why it should be? who's to say that God hasn't predestined a majority to be saved? i don't know who's predestined to be saved and who's not. and those who aren't - aren't purely because of reasons that only God knows..

 

[4His_glory]

Why would predestination be disturbing? The opposite is true, I can rest assured that God will always do what is right at all times.

 

[mman]

Is Predestination disturbing? Are individuals predestined?

This concept nullifies every passage that teaches individual human responsibility. What is the purpose of preaching to the lost, if one’s eternal destiny was fixed and unchangeable from the beginning of time? Why the great commission to go and teach all nations?

Most teaching on predestination comes from the Ephesian letter. The key phrase in Ephesians 1:4 is “in him.” God does not chose certain individuals to be saved or lost, but the Lord foreordained that a certain class of persons would be saved. The plan was predetermined, not the individuals. God calls us through the gospel (II Thess 2:14). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Each man will be judged according to his deeds and the "righteous" judgment of God which is without partiality. (Rom 2:6-11)

What group or class of people will be saved? Those who submit to God's plan for redemption, which involves obeying Jesus Christ (Hebrews 5:8-9), and entering into that relationship that is described as being “in him” (Gal 3:26-27).

In other words, before the world’s foundation, God elected to save those who would be obedient to His Son.

Otherwise, God would be a respecter of persons and judgment would be predetermined.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
God has "predestined ALL to become conformed to the image of his Son" -- ALL that He foreknew - and of course Arminians believe He "foreknew ALL things".

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I don't see in this passage where God has "predestined ALL to become conformed to the image of his Son." Looking back to verse 28 it seems to identify the predestined as "those who love God" & "those who are called according to his purpose."

ALL that He foreknew - and of course Arminians believe He "foreknew ALL things".

Here you seem to base that God foreknew all people based on the fact that God foreknew all things. But does this square with scripture? In Amos 3:2 God says "You only have I known of all the families of the earth..," and again in Matthew 7:23 "And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" If you are saying that God foreknew everyone, how do you expain these verses?

The thread topic asks "Is predestination disturbing?" One could just as well ask "Is Romans 8:29-30 disturbing?" Because it clearly teaches predestination. The controversy boils down not to what is meant by 'predestined,' but rather what is meant by 'foreknew.'

 

[OCC]

That is true. The debate is really about the meaning of 'foreknew'. Somehow we always get into the predestination issue.

 

[johnp.]

Supralapsarians believe that God decreed election, then the fall, then the creation.

...They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. John 17:6.
Adam and Eve were direct by God to fall as was Satan and his lot. The angels that fell not were elect. 1TI 5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels...
I think many Calvinists lay the blame at the door of Adam's free will but I believe God is Sovereign. Arminians in hiding?
Predestination is a great comfort and it inspires awe in me and nothing else inspires awe in me.
Completely at the mercy of the Almighty is awesome.

Calvinists say they chose to sin. Who says they were forced?

I would not use the word force but that God controls what man does.

...that He had created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world so that He could then send his only son to die for those he had already choosen to be His elect, while not providing a way to escape from the pits of Hell for those that He had not choosen to be His elect....Now I have a headache. (JGrubbs)

That's right.
That God created the creation for one reason and that one reason was to die for sins. Those who go to Hell haven't a prayer. John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
There can be no free will but God is Sovereign.

thanks, i might have to re-visit my book of genesis again, i thought God instructed Noah on who he was to take onto the ark with him?

No one gets into Jesus without Jesus' say so.

That's the way God created man, to be all that man can be within the bounds of the creation! With those bounds man has free will to do as his knowledge and upbringing allow. (Wes)

PR 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

john.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by inpeace:
who's to say that God hasn't predestined a majority to be saved?

The Bible says that broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the path to righteousness. Sounds to me that the majority of all men were "predestined" for hell. Not too comforting to me.

 

[rc]

With those bounds man has free will to do as his knowledge and upbringing allow. You cannot limit what God has established for man, within bounds of the freedom that God has given to man.

And those bounds Wes is "EVIL" man is DEAD spiritually. NO MAN DOES GOOD NO NOT ONE.

A leaped can not change his spots... nor can a man choose good...

Those are the BOUNDS God put on mans freedom WES.. He is free to choose everything in his bounds and that is evil.

 

[rc]

KJ,
You hit it right on the head... Luther said to Erasmus that the reformation was not about indulgences or the sacraments it was about predestination...He called it the CORE ECCLESIA...(the heart of the church) It is from this doctrine that spawns man's understanding on everything else.

 

[rc]

The Bible says that broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the path to righteousness

It might not be comforting, even to one respect disheartening.. but yet we must submit to its truth and that verse IS truth.

Yet it is comforting that it also says that of those FEW that find it, the numbers will by like the stars of those that will be in heaven.

 

[rc]

Predestined IN HIM doesn't discount the act of predestining, IN HIM means IN CHRIST verses any other... you point is mute.

 

[OCC]

rc, how can I know God loves me? Or that He wants me to come to Him? If there is the slightest chance that He hates me, what would I want to do with Him?

 

[rc]

Good question.

The very act (or effect for that matter) of UNDERSTANDING God's grace and loving Him for who HE IS and REPENTING and following HIM is the EFFECT of regeneration.

The very fact that you truly love Him is a sign that He LOVED YOU FIRST.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is NOT ABLE to understand them because they are spiritually discerned .

Do you have that ABILITY KJ? I know from what I've read from you, you BELIEVE what He has promised you and it is not foolishness to you...

In that you can understand that you where chosen before the beginning of time. How awesome is His grace !

 

[OCC]

rc, thanks for your encouragement. I'm not gonna jump ship in a second to Calvinism, but you explained how I can know He loves me. Thank you.

 

[rc]

That's an encouragement to me! Praise God !

Thank You KJ !

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
rc, how can I know God loves me? Or that He wants me to come to Him? If there is the slightest chance that He hates me, what would I want to do with Him?

In fact - if you can not even KNOW that your new-birth is VALID until you see that ten years from today you do not FAIL to persevere - then you are not saved today OR ten years from today (according to Five point Calvinism).

But in the case of the Arminian model you CAN know you are saved today via the Romans 8:16 model of "assurance" whereby the "Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God". -- There is no "substitute" for that.

Christ says of the UNREGENERATE (the one with Christ on the OUTSIDE) "Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANY ONE HEARS My voice and OPENS the door I WILL COME IN".

The UNREGENERATE is ENABLED to hear AND to OPEN the door by the power of God's "DRAWING ALL MANKIND" to himself.

Once that person is REGENERATE then HIS VALUES change "Behold ALL THINGS are become NEW" for that NEW BORN in CHRIST.

Calvinism tries to imagine a REGENERATE person WITHOUT CHRIST!! ONE who is in Rev 3 ALONE on the INSIDE WITHOUT CHRIST...

There is no such thing!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
The Bible says that broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the path to righteousness

It might not be comforting, even to one respect disheartening.. but yet we must submit to its truth and that verse IS truth.

This is true. When the Bible contrasts the NUMBER going to HELL vs the NUMBER going to heaven - it is a case of the MANY vs the FEW!!

Of course in Calvinism "the trick" is to "ONLY THINK about the FEW"!!

This is wonderful UNTIL you realize that this leaves out THE MANY - who (not being elect by GENETICS) may very well be members of one's own close family!!

In other words until the Calvinist SEES that they are saved (which in the case of 5 point Calvinism - means waiting Ten years to SEE if you continue to PERSEVER) they can not know that they are among the FEW.

In Calvinism God does NOT so LOVE the WORLD - NOR does He "so love the MANY".

And heaven only knows HOW the FEW are getting "SELECTED".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
That is true. The debate is really about the meaning of 'foreknew'. Somehow we always get into the predestination issue.

True enough. And as most Arminians believe God has absolute and COMPLETE foreknowledge.

That means His WILL has Him predestining ALL to become conformed to the image of His Son.

When the wicked do NOT submit to that DRAWING and plan of predestination - God says of them "They REJECTED God's PURPOSE for them".

Luke 7:30 -

30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.