Is Righteousness Imputed Apart From Works?

[Darrell C]

Hi H.P.,

I have a question for you.

The "hall of faith" in Hebrews 11, have you noticed that all of the works are motivated by faith?

They underwent cruel tribulation by faith.

But, more importantly, they were not made perfect "without us" (believers in this age).

What does it mean "they were not made perfect?"

God bless.

P.S.-this question is for all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Before I start Darrell, can the word ‘perfect’ have more than one meaning or be used in more than one context?

 

[DHK]

The word 'alone'.

I don't have to put the word "alone" in there. It is inferred of course by the omission of all other things. Salvation is by faith (alone). It does not say that salvation or justification is by faith plus anything. If it was by works it would say so, but it doesn't. Thus it is by faith alone. This is simple logic and grammar.
It is as if you want to say "Therefore being justified by faith and eating cheese, we have peace with God." But why should eating cheese justify anyone? Why should baptism or any other work justify anyone. You want to add to the Bible "eating cheese," "baptism", "confirmation," "church membership," etc. But the Bible says none of those things. It simply states: "justified by faith, and for those that don't know English or Greek it means faith alone.

All of this presumes that it is correct to read James (and the Gospels for that matter too) through the lens of Romans rather than, for example, the other way round or even Romans through the lens of Galatians.

Every book has a purpose. Have you never studied literature? Even if you were to study the Bible as a piece of literature you would understand that every book has a purpose, and that the intent and purpose of each other is different from one another. They did not all write with the same purposes in mind.
Paul wrote Philemon to reconcile a run-a-way slave with his Christian master.
The Book Of Acts is a book of recorded history of the acts of the Apostles from the day of Pentecost to the time of the death of Paul.
I can write all the NT books down with their respective authors and tell you what their purpose was in writing. The purpose of Paul in writing the book of Romans was far different than the James writing his epistle "James." Does not that make any sense to you? If it doesn't, you need to crack open your Bible and start studying it.

 

[Matt Black]

None of which addresses my point of reading James through the lens of Romans. I believe that Jesus' words, as recorded in the Gospels, carry the highest interpretative weight, since they are the direct words of the Lord Himself. That's not to say that the rest of the Bible eg: the Pauline corpus, isn't equally inspired but it does mean that interpretative intra-Biblical authority rests first and foremost with Jesus Himself. Now Jesus, ISTM, spoke a lot about works as well as faith. That approach is endorsed in James, which means that Paul cannot be talking about faith alone (contraLuther) since that 'spin' would flatly contradict both Jesus and, for that matter, James. Therefore, in order to make Paul mean what you want him to mean, you have to have the word 'alone' there. Luther realised this, hence his interpolative allein in his German translation. It's not necessary for Paul to put "and works" or, perhaps more accurately, "faith through works", since, if you take the NT as a whole, but especially the Gospels, that is a given.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: It is as if you want to say "Therefore being justified by faith and eating cheese, we have peace with God." But why should eating cheese justify anyone?

HP: Will faith alone save you? Now I am being serious here and I am not simply pointing to James. Will faith alone save you? If it is 'by faith alone' it cannot be by the blood of Christ and faith, or it is not faith alone according to your own logic.

Your problem DHK is clear. You will not understand/accept the clear distinction between the ground of salvation, i.e., the mercy of God ‘alone,’ and the conditions of salvation which are faith, repentance and obedience till the end. When the Apostle Paul is mentioning faith apart from works, what is being addressed is the 'grounds' not the 'conditions of' salvation. If you desire for something to be ‘alone’ you are either going to have to limit your comments to the grounds of salvation or be seen as simply conveniently self serving and contradictory in your comments. Yes we are saved by faith, if you are speaking of a condition of salvation, but “faith is dead being alone” according to Scripture. Read it carefully and observe. “Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” Dead faith will save no one.

Bear carefully in mind, NOTHING we do is meritorious or in any way adds to the mercy of God as it concerns the grounds of salvation. Nothing we are required by God to do can be thought of in any way as something in the sense of ‘that for the sake of‘ our salvation is made possible. Not our faith, our repentance nor any obedience we as sinners could offer is meritorious in nature. NOTHING we do is thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ when one is addressing salvation. Everything we are required to do, including our faith, our repentance, and our continued obedience is always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which. We are NOT saved ‘for the sake of’ our repentance, faith, and obedience, but neither will anyone be saved ‘apart from’ obedience to those conditions God has placed upon His gift. God’s salvation is made possible by His MERCY ALONE, but it will not be experienced in our individual lives apart from the fulfilling of the conditions He has mandated for salvation to be fully accomplished by us with the help and influence proffered by God.

Any notion presented that consists of ‘no conditions existing’ in relationship to salvation, as you have clearly repeatedly on many occasions, will land you squarely in the maelstrom of confusion in the middle of a necessitated system of theology, and that without exception.

 

[DHK]

None of which addresses my point of reading James through the lens of Romans.

This where you are wrong and obviously don't understand or refuse to understand my post.
Romans has a purpose.
James has a purpose.
I don't read one book through the lens of the other.
James is the only book that deals with the practical outworking of faith and works, or righteousness and works. It is a practical book written for Christians dealing with everyday problems that Christians face: like keeping your tongue in check. It is not the problem of the unsaved that he is addressing but one of the saved (for the saved needs to use his tongue for the glory of God). The context of James is imperative to understand before just glibly reading a verse in James and say it contradicts Romans. This is taking Scripture out of context.

 

[DHK]

HP: Will faith alone save you? Now I am being serious here and I am not simply pointing to James. Will faith alone save you? If it is 'by faith alone' it cannot be by the blood of Christ and faith, or it is not faith alone according to your own logic.

It is faith alone. It always has been.

Your problem DHK is clear. You will not understand/accept the clear distinction between the ground of salvation, i.e., the mercy of God ‘alone,’ and the conditions of salvation which are faith, repentance and obedience till the end.

If that is what you believe how can you be saved?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Salvation is not of works; not of obedience; not of doing anything. It is by faith alone. That is what this scripture teaches. Your view contradicts the teaching of Scripture. It contradicts Romans 5:1, as well as Romans 4:1-5, which you have been unable to exegete for me. I wonder why?

When the Apostle Paul is mentioning faith apart from works, what is being addressed is the 'grounds' not the 'conditions of' salvation.

There are no conditions of salvation. This shows your complete misunderstanding of salvation. Salvation is a gift of God. There are no conditions in a gift!

If you desire for something to be ‘alone’ you are either going to have to limit your comments to the grounds of salvation or be seen as simply conveniently self serving and contradictory in your comments.

My comments are not contradictory. God made me (everyone) as an object of his love. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. For this cause he sent his Son to die for our sins, that whosoever shall believe in him (and his atoning sacrifice shall have eternal life. Eternal life is eternal. If it should stop (for any reason) at any time it would not be eternal and God would be found to be a liar.
Faith always has an object. The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. It is faith alone in Jesus Christ and what he has done on the Cross of Calvary. What he has done on the cross is called grace (God's Riches At Christ's Expense).

Yes we are saved by faith, if you are speaking of a condition of salvation, but “faith is dead being alone” according to Scripture. Read it carefully and observe. “Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” Dead faith will save no one.

Faith has an object. If my faith is in Jesus Christ it is not dead. Christ is living, and therefore my faith is living. The object of the demons faith is not in the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore there is no salvation. They only know that he can save. See the difference. Faith has an object. It is not a condition of salvation. Faith is never seen as a condition for it is not a work and can never be seen as a work. What kind of work if faith. Will an employer hire you to have faith? Is it something you do? No.

Bear carefully in mind, NOTHING we do is meritorious or in any way adds to the mercy of God as it concerns the grounds of salvation.

Describe how faith is a work, how it is something we actually do. Describe how someone would pay you for your faith. That is how you can describe whether or not it is a work. It is something actually done.

Nothing we are required by God to do can be thought of in any way as something in the sense of ‘that for the sake of‘ our salvation is made possible. Not our faith, our repentance nor any obedience we as sinners could offer is meritorious in nature.

Of those mentioned above faith is the one thing that is not meritorious. The others are. You can actually repent. One can see the fruit of it. Baptism is something you do. Obedience is something you do, and if you don't do it your employer fires you. He doesn't fire you for not having faith.

NOTHING we do is thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ when one is addressing salvation. Everything we are required to do, including our faith, our repentance, and our continued obedience is always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.

Faith is not a work. Faith is not included.

We are NOT saved ‘for the sake of’ our repentance, faith, and obedience, but neither will anyone be saved ‘apart from’ obedience to those conditions God has placed upon His gift.

Every gift is accepted by faith. No gift must be accepted by repentance and obedience. If it was it wouldn't be a gift. Read Romans 4:1-5.

God’s salvation is made possible by His MERCY ALONE, but it will not be experienced in our individual lives apart from the fulfilling of the conditions He has mandated for salvation to be fully accomplished by us with the help and influence proffered by God.

The object of one's faith must be Christ and his atoning sacrifice. That sacrifice came by his mercy and grace, didn't it? It is not my mercy, my grace; it is God's. I must accept it by faith alone.

Any notion presented that consists of ‘no conditions existing’ in relationship to salvation, as you have clearly repeatedly on many occasions, will land you squarely in the maelstrom of confusion in the middle of a necessitated system of theology, and that without exception.

And that is precisely why you are so confused.

 

[billwald]

>It is as if you want to say "Therefore being justified by faith and eating cheese, we have peace with God." But why should eating cheese justify anyone?

The BIG question ignored by all "TRUE BELIEVERS" for 2000 years, why should faith justify anyone? What is "righteous" about Jesus being punished for my sins?

 

[DHK]

>It is as if you want to say "Therefore being justified by faith and eating cheese, we have peace with God." But why should eating cheese justify anyone?

The BIG question ignored by all "TRUE BELIEVERS" for 2000 years, why should faith justify anyone? What is "righteous" about Jesus being punished for my sins?

On what basis do you think you should be forgiven?
What have you done to merit the favor of God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: There are no conditions of salvation. This shows your complete misunderstanding of salvation. Salvation is a gift of God. There are no conditions in a gift!

HP: What do you mean when you say there are no conditions 'in a gift?? ' Conditions are not 'in' the gift, but there are clearly conditions 'without which' the gift will have no eternal effect on ones soul. For starters, repentance is the first condition we must fulfill, without which no one shall be saved. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Where is your Scriptural evidence that the gift of salvaion does not or cannot require conditions to be met in order for it to have an eternal impact on ones soul?

 

[DHK]

HP: What do you mean when you say there are no conditions 'in a gift?? ' Conditions are not 'in' the gift, but there are clearly conditions 'without which' the gift will have no eternal effect on ones soul. For starters, repentance is the first condition we must fulfill, without which no one shall be saved. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Where is your Scriptural evidence that the gift of salvaion does not or cannot require conditions to be met in order for it to have an eternal impact on ones soul?

Basic definitions HP.
If a "gift" has conditions, then it is not a gift. God's gifts are always unconditional.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Basic definitions HP.
If a "gift" has conditions, then it is not a gift. God's gifts are always unconditional.

HP: Seriously DHK, says who? Who, besides yourself, states or implies a gift cannot have conditions??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here are some scenerios. I have a car I have decided to get rid of. I have many options, two of which are as follows. I can allow one to work for the car until it is paid in full. I can decide to give it away, no conditions attached as a gift, or I can give it away as a gift with certain conditions. I might say, I will give you this car free and clear as a gift, but this gift is conditioned upon you remaining obedient around the house. If you continue to obey and act in an appropriate manner, the gift is yours. If you fail to obey and start to use the car as a means to circumvent your obedience here at home, the car gets put up.

It is clear that in the case where the car was given as a gift with conditions, the one receiving did nothing to ‘work’ for the car. Nothing more was required than what reason demands of the other, gift or no gift.

Take a pardon for instance, You cannot merit a pardon nor can you work for it. Just the same no pardon is granted, no freedom is offered, apart from certain conditions. One must continue acting in accordance to the laws of the land. If they fail to abide by th laws of the land, they fall right back under the authority of the law, the pardon having no effect on future acts of injustice. A pardon is clearly a gift that one cannot work for, but is also a gift with conditions.

We as believers have been pardoned for sins that are past. There are numerous places in Scripture that represent God’s forgiveness as a pardon. Here is one such instance. “Jer 33:8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.” Clearly a pardon only covers sins that are past, just as Scripture clearly spells out. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is not the slightest indication in Scripture, reason, or experience that mandates a gift cannot have conditions. It most certain can and often does, salvation being no exception.

 

[steaver]

Here are some scenerios. I have a car I have decided to get rid of. I have many options, two of which are as follows. I can allow one to work for the car until it is paid in full. I can decide to give it away, no conditions attached as a gift, or I can give it away as a gift with certain conditions. I might say, I will give you this car free and clear as a gift, but this gift is conditioned upon you remaining obedient around the house. If you continue to obey and act in an appropriate manner, the gift is yours. If you fail to obey and start to use the car as a means to circumvent your obedience here at home, the car gets put up.

It is clear that in the case where the car was given as a gift with conditions, the one receiving did nothing to ‘work’ for the car. Nothing more was required than what reason demands of the other, gift or no gift.

Take a pardon for instance, You cannot merit a pardon nor can you work for it. Just the same no pardon is granted, no freedom is offered, apart from certain conditions. One must continue acting in accordance to the laws of the land. If they fail to abide by th laws of the land, they fall right back under the authority of the law, the pardon having no effect on future acts of injustice. A pardon is clearly a gift that one cannot work for, but is also a gift with conditions.

We as believers have been pardoned for sins that are past. There are numerous places in Scripture that represent God’s forgiveness as a pardon. Here is one such instance. “Jer 33:8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.” Clearly a pardon only covers sins that are past, just as Scripture clearly spells out. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is not the slightest indication in Scripture, reason, or experience that mandates a gift cannot have conditions. It most certain can and often does, salvation being no exception.

You missed a qualifying word in the scripture, it is a "free gift". As soon as you add any condition to the gift it is no longer free but must be earned.

"free" has many definitions, look them up. You will not find any definition linked to a condition. Here is one definition; "not subject to a duty, tax or charge".

You'll lose this argument all day long brother.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

We as believers have been pardoned for sins that are past. There are numerous places in Scripture that represent God’s forgiveness as a pardon. Here is one such instance. “Jer 33:8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.” Clearly a pardon only covers sins that are past, just as Scripture clearly spells out. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is not the slightest indication in Scripture, reason, or experience that mandates a gift cannot have conditions. It most certain can and often does, salvation being no exception.

Hbr 8:1Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;


My High Priest will not fail me.

Rom 8:34Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hbr 10:12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hbr 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Trust in your High Priest brother, not in your "commandment keeping".

Jesus began my faith in Him and Jesus will finish my faith in Him.

1Th 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

HP: Seriously DHK, says who? Who, besides yourself, states or implies a gift cannot have conditions??

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Paul through the Holy Spirit says it.
Including salvation he freely gives us ALL things.
FREE means no conditions attached. It is unconditional.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Paul through the Holy Spirit says it.
Including salvation he freely gives us ALL things.
FREE means no conditions attached. It is unconditional.

HP: Again DHK, how does the word ‘freely’ carry with it the notion that it cannot be conditional and remain free?? A pardon is free yet conditional. The examples I gave you even of giving a car conditionally to a teen does not negate the fact that it was in fact free. Where is your support for your assumptions?

 

[DHK]

HP: Again DHK, how does the word ‘freely’ carry with it the notion that it cannot be conditional and remain free?? A pardon is free yet conditional. The examples I gave you even of giving a car conditionally to a teen does not negate the fact that it was in fact free. Where is your support for your assumptions?

I don't need examples, philosophies, exceptions, etc.
Use a dictionary.
A free gift by any dictionary meaning is without condition without exception, "except" in your mind. So what is your problem? Why are you trying to change the definition of words "except" to twist the Scriptures to make the say what you want them to say. That is a dangerous practice.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: A free gift by any dictionary meaning is without condition without exception,

HP:Can you site one example where a dictionary states a gift cannot have conditions?

 

[billwald]

>DHK: A free gift by any dictionary meaning is without condition without exception,

Agree! in modern parlance, if there are strings it is a grant, not a gift.

Main Entry: 1grant
Pronunciation: \ˈgrant\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French granter, graanter, from Vulgar Latin *credentare, from Latin credent-, credens, present participle of credere to believe — more at creed
Date: 13th century
1 a : to consent to carry out for a person : allow fulfillment of <grant a request> b : to permit as a right, privilege, or favor <luggage allowances granted to passengers>
2 : to bestow or transfer formally <grant a scholarship to a student>; specifically : to give the possession or title of by a deed
3 a : to be willing to concede b : to assume to be true <granting that you are correct>
— grant·able \ˈgran-tə-bəl\ adjective
— grant·er \-tər\ noun
— grant·or \ˈgran-tər, -ˌtȯr; gran-ˈtȯr\ noun
synonyms grant, concede, vouchsafe, accord, award mean to give as a favor or a right. grant implies giving to a claimant or petitioner something that could be withheld <granted them a new hearing>. concede implies yielding something reluctantly in response to a rightful or compelling claim <even her critics concede she can be charming>. vouchsafe implies granting something as a courtesy or an act of gracious condescension <vouchsafed the secret to only a few chosen disciples>. accord implies giving to another what is due or proper <accorded all the honors befitting a head of state>. award implies giving what is deserved or merited usually after a careful weighing of pertinent factors <awarded the company a huge defense contract>.

-----------
Main Entry: 1gift
Pronunciation: \ˈgift\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse, something given, talent; akin to Old English giefan to give
Date: 12th century
1 : a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3 : the act, right, or power of giving
synonyms gift, faculty, aptitude, bent, talent, genius, knack mean a special ability for doing something. gift often implies special favor by God or nature <the gift of singing beautifully>. faculty applies to an innate or less often acquired ability for a particular accomplishment or function <a faculty for remembering names>. aptitude implies a natural liking for some activity and the likelihood of success in it <a mechanical aptitude>. bent is nearly equal to aptitude but it stresses inclination perhaps more than specific ability <a family with an artistic bent>. talent suggests a marked natural ability that needs to be developed <has enough talent to succeed>. genius suggests impressive inborn creative ability <has no great genius for poetry>. knack implies a comparatively minor but special ability making for ease and dexterity in performance <the knack of getting along>.