Is Righteousness Imputed Apart From Works?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bill, where does any definition you posted state or imply a gift cannot have conditions?

 

[DHK]

Bill, where does any definition you posted state or imply a gift cannot have conditions?

Comprendez vous Anglais? Francais?.....?

What language do you understand? What dictionary do you want to use? Perhaps the one written by HP.

There is no such thing as a free gift with conditions. It is a contradiction of terms.
It is like a banker saying "Here is a gift of ten dollars, now I want you to pay for it." If it is a gift one doesn't pay for it. If one pays for it, it is not a gift. Thus a free gift cannot have any conditions, any strings attached, nada, nothing, zilch! It is free; a gift, with no conditions. Study the English language, and the Greek too if you have to.

 

[Matt Black]

This where you are wrong and obviously don't understand or refuse to understand my post.

Oh, I understand it alright; I just don't agree with it.

Romans has a purpose.
James has a purpose.
I don't read one book through the lens of the other.

With respect, yes you do. You approach James through your presumption that your sola fide interpretation of Romans 5 is correct.

James is the only book that deals with the practical outworking of faith and works, or righteousness and works. It is a practical book written for Christians dealing with everyday problems that Christians face: like keeping your tongue in check.

Another presumption; yes, James is about orthopraxis but it is also about orthodoxy. I fail to see how you can read "a man is not saved by faith alone" in a non-doctrinal way without performing unfeasible feats of mental gymnastics.

It is not the problem of the unsaved that he is addressing but one of the saved (for the saved needs to use his tongue for the glory of God). The context of James is imperative to understand before just glibly reading a verse in James and say it contradicts Romans. This is taking Scripture out of context.

And you're not doing this with your 'take' on Romans 5, then?

 

[DHK]

Oh, I understand it alright; I just don't agree with it.

There is a reason for everything. Your reason is....

With respect, yes you do.

No, you don't know how I study the Bible. I have been through every book of the Bible, and study each one independently. Unless you see my approach to Bible Study you have no basis on which to make which seem to be false accusations.

You approach James through your presumption that your sola fide interpretation of Romans 5 is correct.

So your approach to the Bible is "Matt doesn't believe Romans 5 is correct." You go into the Bible with an inherent belief that Romans 5 shouldn't be there or what? What exactly are you saying?

Another presumption; yes, James is about orthopraxis but it is also about orthodoxy. I fail to see how you can read "a man is not saved by faith alone" in a non-doctrinal way without performing unfeasible feats of mental gymnastics. And you're not doing this with your 'take' on Romans 5, then?

Your approach to the Bible: Treat every book the same regardless of context. The context doesn't matter. Thus the key verse of the book of Judges: "And every man did that which is right in their own eyes." should apply to us. Forget about the law; forget about God. We should have complete anarchy; antinomianism. This is your belief because context has no place in your theology. Is this correct?

You refuse to deal with context in the Book of James.
Why would you bother with context in the Book of Judges?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Your approach to the Bible: Treat every book the same regardless of context. The context doesn't matter.

HP: Now come on DHK. Your are a fine one to be admonishing others on context.

DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context.

 

[DHK]

HP: Now come on DHK. Your are a fine one to be admonishing others on context.

DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context.

Is my statement true or false.
If false, what is false about it?
If true, why are you bringing it up?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, context to you appears to me as simply a weapon to wield if it happens to be in favor of a position you have taken. If context proves otherwise you simply dismiss it. Case in point, Psalms 58.

 

[DHK]

DHK, context to you appears to me as simply a weapon to wield if it happens to be in favor of a position you have taken. If context proves otherwise you simply dismiss it. Case in point, Psalms 58.

There is a universal truth taught in Psalm 58:3 regardless of the context. You, because of your theology, refuse to believe it. You would rather throw your Bible out the window, than to believe the truth of original sin. You refuse to believe that truth no matter how many times it is shown you and where it is shown you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: There is no such thing as a free gift with conditions. It is a contradiction of terms.
It is like a banker saying "Here is a gift of ten dollars, now I want you to pay for it."

HP: Who said anything about a condition being ‘payment’ for it???? Why do you put up that paper duck to shoot at? The fulfilling of a condition is not 'paying' for anything.

 

[DHK]

HP: Who said anything about a condition being ‘payment’ for it???? Why do you put up that paper duck to shoot at? The fulfilling of a condition is not 'paying' for anything.

"free" is without condition. Condition is the equivalent of payment or works rendered.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hogwash DHK. There is not a shred of evidence that your remarks are true, and you have failed to support your belief other than to beat on the pulpit. I will ask yet another time, Show us one bit of evidence that a gift cannot have conditions attached and still be justly considered a free gift.

Refute the examples I have given. Tell me whether or not a pardon is a gift, and show us why it is not reasonable to place conditions of the freedom a pardon grants freely, without payment of any kind.

 

[Amy.G]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gift


gift
   
–noun
1.something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2.the act of giving.
3.something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
4.a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.



Now will you be so kind as to cite a definition of gift that includes conditions? If such a definition exists, you should be able to provide it to us. You can easily prove us wrong.

 

[DHK]

Hogwash DHK. There is not a shred of evidence that your remarks are true, and you have failed to support your belief other than to beat on the pulpit. I will ask yet another time, Show us one bit of evidence that a gift cannot have conditions attached and still be justly considered a free gift.

Refute the examples I have given. Tell me whether or not a pardon is a gift, and show us why it is not reasonable to place conditions of the freedom a pardon grants freely, without payment of any kind.

A pardon is not a gift. That is why it is a pardon. Two separate words; two separate meanings. Even dictionaries and articles written on pardons indicate that they are given to inmates that have shown themselves "worthy" of a pardon. But no man is "worthy" of salvation.

You look up the definition of "gift".
Then look up the definition of "free."
Then put the two together.

There is no possible way that a "free gift" can have conditions, no matter "how hard you pound your pulpit," or "beat on your computer," or "holler at your laptop." It ain't gonna work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

2Th 1:11 ¶ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

 

[DHK]

2Th 1:11 ¶ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

What do those verses have to do salvation?
Do you know the difference between the sun and the moon?
Why the red herrings? Can't you keep on topic.

 

[DHK]

2Th 1:11 ¶ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling,

Note, It does not say: "worthy of salvation."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Never stated that it did. I simply posted some verses I felt should give cause for careful consideration/ edification. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Never stated that it did. I simply posted some verses I felt should give cause for careful consideration/ edification. :thumbs:

Which in light of the conversation and title of the thread are "red herrings."

 

[DHK]

Which in light of the conversation and title of the thread are "red herrings."

Personally, I believe it is a stalling tactic to avoid answering Amy's question, (and mine).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: 1.something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2.the act of giving.
3.something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
4.a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.

HP: 1. A pardon is given “voluntarily without payment in return.” If it required payment, such payment would be considered a bribe.
2. One granting a pardon performs an act of giving
3. A pardon is bestowed or “acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without being earned.”
4. (does not apply to the sense of ‘gift’ we are discussing)

Nothing new here Amy. A pardon is a gift fitting nicely inside the parameters of the first three definitions shown, yet clearly has implied conditions on receiving and remaining the freedom it grants. Of a truth, a gift certainly can have conditions, salvation being no exception, as demonstrated clearly by a pardon.