Oh?!? Glad you concluded that.:laugh:
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is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
How could one mnot though?
teach MANY things counter to word of God...
have a "form" of godliness but deny it...
IF a person is saved in RC Church its despite their doctrines but due to Grace and election of God....
Gospel+ good works = false Gospel....
Ah, there you go.....I would doubt they would understand Salvation by Grace however since much of what they do is works related. Let us rejoice that we do! And thats where you should start to teach them the correct gospel vs pummeling them with threats of hell. Did not Election & Predestination & the Justification Doctrines not move you when you first heard of them? Read the stories of Augustine & Luther to see how they finally worked out their salvation & tell me brother if they did not feel joyful in their souls liberation.
If you look at the numbers Ive posted, we have a rich base of Catholics we can help to Christ just because of these doctrines of Grace. Have at it my brother!:thumbs:
"You really didn't give yourself much of a chance did you?"
LOL, classic passive/aggressive jab! :laugh:
LOL, classic passive/aggressive jab! :laugh:
WestminsterMan
New Member
WestminsterMan
New Member
"Yes" that God makes them to be a True Christian Church, or "Yes "that they are a false church preaching a false gospel?
So much for addressing the OP.
WM
Keep waiting. I'm sure you will get clued in somewhere down the line.After reading this statement, I sat my bible before me on a table. It has yet to interpret itself. However, I am still waiting.
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
I'm sure it will be a long wait... at least in this universe anyway.
WM
Or you could save yourself some time and let DHK interpret it for you. :saint:
(That way you can rid yourself of the errors of popery)
WestminsterMan
New Member
Nahhh... I think I'll just wait and let scripture interpret itself.
And what would those errors be... The Trinity? The hypostatic union? That Jesus is the Son of God? The resurection? Well, alrighty then.
WM
I think I listed some of them for you here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1671388&postcount=179
WestminsterMan
New Member
Here is your quote which eventually led to my reiteration of that post:Well, since I don't hold to most of those...
WM
You don't hold to those doctrines. Why? Because they are false doctrines preached by a false church.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
:smilewinkgrin:westminsterman said:
WestminsterMan
New Member
The post that I was responding to was a vague "yes" to either of those possible answers to the OP. Clarification from the poster is what I was requesting - nothing from you.
I see. Well, since you're not God, I don't imagine that the 1.3 billion Catholics in the world give much credence to what you think about them or their church.
WM
Last edited by a moderator:
They would agree with me that the doctrines that I listed are doctrines that they believe in.
You agreed with me that the doctrines that I listed are doctrines that you don't believe in. There must be a reason for that?
WestminsterMan
New Member
And those listed were anti-gospel. Belief in those send people to hell. I would advise you to google the Council of Trent. Belief in justification by faith alone is anathema. Those who believe in such doctrines are cursed. It has never been rescinded. According to the RCC Baptists are cursed by the Catholic Church to this day.
>False doctrines that cannot be proven by the Bible and are in fact against the Bible: perpetual virginity of Mary,
Can not be proven one way or the other.
> assumption of Mary,
The Bible provides no information one way or the other.
> purgatory,
It is a logical and comforting conclusion. The Bible gives very little information about the next life.
>confession of sin to a priest
We are told to confess our sins, one to another. How many people in your congregation would you feel safe in spilling your guts to? I can think of maybe two protestant preachers I would trust. You tell something to a Catholic priest and it generally stays with him.
> penance (given by a priest)
> extreme unction,
Can't agree with the "forgiving sins" part.
>transubstantiation,
is the Greek analysis of "cause" and is logical. I would be pleased to explain.
> dichotomy of sin (mortal and venial),
If there is an actual punishment for sin then not even God would punish the typical sinning do-gooder to the same extent as he would a Hitler or Pol Pot. I would not respect such a god.
Further, in the Torah there was NO sacrifice for intentional law breaking. The sacrifices were for accidental law breaking. Therefore, Jesus dying for our sins, whatever it means, can not be explained from Torah.
> false division of worship leading to idolatry (latria, dulia, hyperlatria),
latria
worship of the highest order that can be offered only to God.
dulia [ˈdjuːlɪə]
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) (Christianity / Eastern Church (Greek & Russian Orthodox)) the veneration accorded to saints in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Churches, as contrasted with hyperdulia and latria
hyperdulia [ˌhaɪpədjʊˈlɪə]
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) RC Church special veneration accorded to the Virgin Mary Compare dulia, latria
Interesting. can't find Hyperlatria, probably a protestant invention.
see also ttp://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/11/catholic-aid-i-need-clarification-and-proper-definition/
" Church theologians have long adopted latria terms for the type of worship due to God, and dulia for veneration of saints and icons.
"Catholic theology also includes hyperdulia term for the type of veneration particular attention to Mary, Mother of Jesus in the Catholic tradition.
"This distinction is explained in the dogmatic conclusions of the VII Ecumenical Council, which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus."
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/venerate Note that only one source out of five includes "worship" as a synonym.
ven·er·ate (vn-rt)
tr.v. ven·er·at·ed, ven·er·at·ing, ven·er·ates
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference. See Synonyms at revere1.
[Latin venerr, venert-, to venerate, from venus, vener-, love, desire; see wen-1 in Indo-European roots.]
vener·ator n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
venerate [ˈvɛnəˌreɪt]
vb (tr)
1. to hold in deep respect; revere
2. to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
[from Latin venerārī, from venus love]
venerator n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1. venerate - regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"
reverence, revere, fear
esteem, respect, value, prise, prize - regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgement"; "We prize his creativity"
saint, enshrine - hold sacred
worship - show devotion to (a deity); "Many Hindus worship Shiva"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
venerate
verb respect, honour, esteem, revere, worship, adore, reverence, look up to, hold in awe My father venerated General Eisenhower.
mock, disregard, scorn, spurn, deride, dishonour, execrate
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
Don't some on this list venerate some US historical figures, maybe the last President Bush?
>praying to Mary and dead saints, using Mary as an intercessor in the place of Christ, the immaculate conception of Mary, salvation by works and not of faith alone, etc., etc., etc.
Are the people in Heaven dead or alive? Can they communicate with each other? Is there a verse which forbids them from hearing our prayers?
Can not be proven one way or the other.
> assumption of Mary,
The Bible provides no information one way or the other.
> purgatory,
It is a logical and comforting conclusion. The Bible gives very little information about the next life.
>confession of sin to a priest
We are told to confess our sins, one to another. How many people in your congregation would you feel safe in spilling your guts to? I can think of maybe two protestant preachers I would trust. You tell something to a Catholic priest and it generally stays with him.
> penance (given by a priest)
> extreme unction,
Can't agree with the "forgiving sins" part.
>transubstantiation,
is the Greek analysis of "cause" and is logical. I would be pleased to explain.
> dichotomy of sin (mortal and venial),
If there is an actual punishment for sin then not even God would punish the typical sinning do-gooder to the same extent as he would a Hitler or Pol Pot. I would not respect such a god.
Further, in the Torah there was NO sacrifice for intentional law breaking. The sacrifices were for accidental law breaking. Therefore, Jesus dying for our sins, whatever it means, can not be explained from Torah.
> false division of worship leading to idolatry (latria, dulia, hyperlatria),
latria
worship of the highest order that can be offered only to God.
dulia [ˈdjuːlɪə]
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) (Christianity / Eastern Church (Greek & Russian Orthodox)) the veneration accorded to saints in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Churches, as contrasted with hyperdulia and latria
hyperdulia [ˌhaɪpədjʊˈlɪə]
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) RC Church special veneration accorded to the Virgin Mary Compare dulia, latria
Interesting. can't find Hyperlatria, probably a protestant invention.
see also ttp://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/11/catholic-aid-i-need-clarification-and-proper-definition/
" Church theologians have long adopted latria terms for the type of worship due to God, and dulia for veneration of saints and icons.
"Catholic theology also includes hyperdulia term for the type of veneration particular attention to Mary, Mother of Jesus in the Catholic tradition.
"This distinction is explained in the dogmatic conclusions of the VII Ecumenical Council, which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus."
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/venerate Note that only one source out of five includes "worship" as a synonym.
ven·er·ate (vn-rt)
tr.v. ven·er·at·ed, ven·er·at·ing, ven·er·ates
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference. See Synonyms at revere1.
[Latin venerr, venert-, to venerate, from venus, vener-, love, desire; see wen-1 in Indo-European roots.]
vener·ator n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
venerate [ˈvɛnəˌreɪt]
vb (tr)
1. to hold in deep respect; revere
2. to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
[from Latin venerārī, from venus love]
venerator n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1. venerate - regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"
reverence, revere, fear
esteem, respect, value, prise, prize - regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgement"; "We prize his creativity"
saint, enshrine - hold sacred
worship - show devotion to (a deity); "Many Hindus worship Shiva"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
venerate
verb respect, honour, esteem, revere, worship, adore, reverence, look up to, hold in awe My father venerated General Eisenhower.
mock, disregard, scorn, spurn, deride, dishonour, execrate
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
Don't some on this list venerate some US historical figures, maybe the last President Bush?
>praying to Mary and dead saints, using Mary as an intercessor in the place of Christ, the immaculate conception of Mary, salvation by works and not of faith alone, etc., etc., etc.
Are the people in Heaven dead or alive? Can they communicate with each other? Is there a verse which forbids them from hearing our prayers?
Maybe the BB Powers That Be would let some Practicing "Genuine" Catholics on to debate these points otherwise this isn't truly a debate in my own humble estimation.
One might pile onto your Reformed Paedo Baptist ordinances / sacraments also as a no no & a concoction but then an again you & GE are here argue that. Right.