is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

[DHK]

>False doctrines that cannot be proven by the Bible and are in fact against the Bible: perpetual virginity of Mary,

Yes, it can be proven:
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:24-25)
"to know her" means "sexually", and he did that after her firstborn son (Jesus). She did not remain a virgin according to this verse. This is very strong proof.
Furthermore:
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? (Matthew 13:55-56)
--His family members are listed here including his brothers and sisters, children of Mary that were born after Christ was born. No more proof is needed. Mary did not remain a virgin. This doctrine of perpetual virginity is shot full of holes as totally unbiblical.

Can not be proven one way or the other.

I just did, didn't I.

> assumption of Mary,
The Bible provides no information one way or the other.

The Bible is our authority. We don't just go making up fairy tales as our doctrine. Is the planet Pluto made up of green cheese also?

> purgatory,

It is a logical and comforting conclusion. The Bible gives very little information about the next life.

The Bible gives lots of information on the next life. Jesus preached more on hell than he did on heaven. There is plenty of information on both. Just read your Bible. But there is nothing on purgatory. Why? It is a man-made doctrine, contrary to Biblical doctrine.

>confession of sin to a priest

We are told to confess our sins, one to another. How many people in your congregation would you feel safe in spilling your guts to? I can think of maybe two protestant preachers I would trust. You tell something to a Catholic priest and it generally stays with him.

Human reasoning. We are never told to confess our sins to a priest--never. In fact the Bible says we have one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)
--Thus the RCC violates this command.

> penance (given by a priest)

The priest has no such authority.

> extreme unction,

Can't agree with the "forgiving sins" part.

God alone can forgive sins. See Mark chapter two.

>transubstantiation,

is the Greek analysis of "cause" and is logical. I would be pleased to explain.

No, it is the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, a heresy that the RCC continues to promote. Christ died once and once for all. He is not re-sacrificed again and again.

> dichotomy of sin (mortal and venial),

If there is an actual punishment for sin then not even God would punish the typical sinning do-gooder to the same extent as he would a Hitler or Pol Pot. I would not respect such a god.

I am sorry that you do not respect God.
God says that all sins are equal in his sight. If you break one, you are a sinner, and as good as breaking them all.
What is sin? Sin is breaking them all. Therefore the one who lies is the same as the one who murders. Both have broken the law.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

Further, in the Torah there was NO sacrifice for intentional law breaking. The sacrifices were for accidental law breaking. Therefore, Jesus dying for our sins, whatever it means, can not be explained from Torah.

The Torah is not the Bible. That is just a cop-out.

> false division of worship leading to idolatry (latria, dulia, hyperlatria),

latria
worship of the highest order that can be offered only to God.

dulia [ˈdjuːlɪə]
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) (Christianity / Eastern Church (Greek & Russian Orthodox)) the veneration accorded to saints in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Churches, as contrasted with hyperdulia and latria

hyperdulia [ˌhaɪpədjʊˈlɪə]
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) RC Church special veneration accorded to the Virgin Mary Compare dulia, latria

Interesting. can't find Hyperlatria, probably a protestant invention.

I meant hyperdulia. That was my mistake.
This is the RCC division of worship. There is only one kind of worship in the Bible. All worship belongs to God. To worship Mary is idolatry. Therefore the RCC comes up with another name. Deceptive but it doesn't fool God, nor most men.

" Church theologians have long adopted latria terms for the type of worship due to God, and dulia for veneration of saints and icons.
"Catholic theology also includes hyperdulia term for the type of veneration particular attention to Mary, Mother of Jesus in the Catholic tradition.
"This distinction is explained in the dogmatic conclusions of the VII Ecumenical Council, which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus."

from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/venerate Note that only one source out of five includes "worship" as a synonym.

We get our Biblical definitions from the Bible, not from secular dictionaries. The Bible makes no distinctions. All worship belongs to God. The church theologians (ALL) were Catholics that you referred to. Protestants never refer to those term except in a Catholic context, such as I am doing now. Worship belongs to God. The RCC venerates or worships idols, icons, etc. That is idolatry, no different than what the Hindus do. No Baptist would ever do this. They know what the Bible teaches. It teaches that it is idolatry. But Catholics redefine words thinking they can call it something else. It doesn't work that way. You can't fool God.

ven·er·ate (vn-rt)
tr.v. ven·er·at·ed, ven·er·at·ing, ven·er·ates
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference. See Synonyms at revere1.
[Latin venerr, venert-, to venerate, from venus, vener-, love, desire; see wen-1 in Indo-European roots.]
vener·ator n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
venerate [ˈvɛnəˌreɪt]
vb (tr)
1. to hold in deep respect; revere
2. to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
[from Latin venerārī, from venus love]
venerator n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1. venerate - regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"
reverence, revere, fear
esteem, respect, value, prise, prize - regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgement"; "We prize his creativity"
saint, enshrine - hold sacred
worship - show devotion to (a deity); "Many Hindus worship Shiva"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
venerate
verb respect, honour, esteem, revere, worship, adore, reverence, look up to, hold in awe My father venerated General Eisenhower.
mock, disregard, scorn, spurn, deride, dishonour, execrate
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002

Don't some on this list venerate some US historical figures, maybe the last President Bush?

As God, no. The RCC venerates Mary and others as god. They pray to Mary as a god. They act like Hindus in this manner.

>praying to Mary and dead saints, using Mary as an intercessor in the place of Christ, the immaculate conception of Mary, salvation by works and not of faith alone, etc., etc., etc.

Are the people in Heaven dead or alive? Can they communicate with each other? Is there a verse which forbids them from hearing our prayers?

They are dead. Their bodies are still in the grave. The unsaved go to cemeteries and pray to their loved ones buried there. What is the difference? None. Praying to the dead is a form of necromancy. You bury a body because they are dead; because they are no more alive. That is what a funeral is for--to remember the one who has died.

Mary is dead. She has no power, and never did to intercede. That is another heresy all in itself. Christ is our only intercessor.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

Mary was not immaculately conceived. This is another heresy. She was born a sinner, called Christ her Savior, and offered up a sin offering when Christ was circumcised. These all point to her sinful condition. She admitted that she was a sinner. How can one say she was not, or was immaculately conceived when there isn't any evidence for it. This is another man-made fairy tale. What other planets are made of green cheese do you believe in?

 

[billwald]

So to whom do you confess your sins? God? Then you must be a god?

"Absent from the body, present with the Lord" doesn't bean anything? You believe in soul sleep?


>The Bible is our authority.

Nothing in the NT forbids lesbian activity and you reject plain OT teachings?

>God says that all sins are equal in his sight. If you break one, you are a sinner, and as good as breaking them all.
What is sin? Sin is breaking them all. Therefore the one who lies is the same as the one who murders. Both have broken the law.

Laws like not planting two crops in one field nor wearing wool/nylon blend sox? And all your flat roofed buildings have fences around the perimeter? And when you have a wet dream . . . .


>The RCC venerates Mary and others as god.

You refuse to understand plain English because you prefer to hate Catholics.

 

[DHK]

So to whom do you confess your sins? God? Then you must be a god?

A non sequitor if I have ever seen one.
Yes, I confess my sins to God for that is what the Bible commands me to do:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
--Never does it command or even suggest to confess them to a priest. In fact to do so would be sin. Just a couple verses after 1John 1:9 John states:

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)
--If we sin we have an advocate (a mediator or intercessor), and that is Jesus Christ. It goes on in verse 2 to say that he is the propitiation for our sins. He is the only one that can make a satisfactory payment for the penalty of our sins. That is why we pray to Christ our intercessor. He alone can forgive them.

"Absent from the body, present with the Lord" doesn't bean anything? You believe in soul sleep?

"bean" ??
No, I don't believe in soul sleep. The fact of the matter is that the resurrection has not yet taken place. Read the context. These verses are often quoted out of context. Here is one to help you:

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (2 Corinthians 5:2)
In verse one he speaks of his present body. In verse two he speaks of the body he looks forward to be clothed with--his resurrection body. That is what he is looking forward to--the resurrection. He is not speaking of his spirit in heaven, but rather the resurrection.

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Corinthians 5:3)
--Again the resurrection--the spirit will not be found naked, but be clothed upon with the resurrection body. He looks forward to the resurrection.

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Corinthians 5:4)
--This tabernacle is this temporary body. Someday we will receive a body that will be immortal. He looks forward to the resurrection.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:6-7)
--He looks forward to the resurrection. Again the context is told by verse 7. We walk by faith and not by sight. Someday will see Christ in the flesh, and faith will no longer be needed. But until then we walk by faith. Now we are at home in the body. Now we are absent from the Lord. When Christ comes (and the rapture occurs) we will be with the Lord in our resurrection bodies.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)
Paul is still referring to the resurrection. The contrast is this body to the resurrection body.
He continues the contrast:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)
--In your resurrected body you will stand before the Lord and give an account of yourself.

>The Bible is our authority.

Nothing in the NT forbids lesbian activity and you reject plain OT teachings?

The Bible is always our authority.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:26-27)
--Yes, both lesbianism and homosexuality are soundly condemned in the NT.

>God says that all sins are equal in his sight. If you break one, you are a sinner, and as good as breaking them all.

That is what James 2:10 says. Your argument is with God.

What is sin? Sin is breaking them all. Therefore the one who lies is the same as the one who murders. Both have broken the law.

Sin is a transgression of the law:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

Laws like not planting two crops in one field nor wearing wool/nylon blend sox? And all your flat roofed buildings have fences around the perimeter?

Those were OT Jewish laws that were done away with at the cross.

>The RCC venerates Mary and others as god.

You refuse to understand plain English because you prefer to hate Catholics.

--No, I refuse to use YOUR definitions.

veneration
rites and ceremonies (in worship (religion): Variations or distinctions within the act of worship)
...Vehicle) Buddhism. To worship any being or object other than God alone is thus understood to be an engagement in idolatry, though other beings, persons, or objects may be shown lesser forms of veneration because of their special relationship to the divine.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/625105/veneration

Your definition is selective to go along with the RCC interpretation which is totally against that of the Bible. They redefine words to get away from the indictment of idolatry.

 

[SeekerOfTruth]

Let's go back...

I don't get to come here very often. I was surprised by the un-charitable behavior and attitudes on the board. Even our Lord was charitable and loving to the Pharisees. Yes, he rebuked them, but he also ate with them.
the definition of CULT:

cult [kʌlt]
n
1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a specific system of religious worship, esp with reference to its rites and deity
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a sect devoted to such a system
3. (Sociology) a quasi-religious organization using devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents
4. (Sociology) Sociol a group having an exclusive ideology and ritual practices centred on sacred symbols, esp one characterized by lack of organizational structure
5. intense interest in and devotion to a person, idea, or activity the cult of yoga
6. the person, idea, etc., arousing such devotion
7.
a. something regarded as fashionable or significant by a particular group
b. (as modifier) a cult show
8. (modifier) of, relating to, or characteristic of a cult or cults a cult figure
[from Latin cultus cultivation, refinement, from colere to till]
cultism n
cultist n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins
Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

By definition #1, Baptists, RCs, ECUSA, Anglicans, Methodists are all CULTS.

By nubmer 3, no, the RCC is NOT a cult. It is not devious, nor does it use such deceipt to gain and control its believers. I know many many Catholics (I live in the most Catholic state in the Union) and they are not cultish, in fact, by way of comparison, Baptists, INCLUDING SOME OF MY FELLOW CHURCH ATTENDEES, act more cultish than the RCCs! I have been in Baptist Churches that don't allow women to wear pants, women can't speak, etc. I also know churches that say "you aren't really Christian if you can't speak in tongues".

I have had more loving attention when I needed it from my RCC friends at times.

Is it not the truth if we all love Christ, crucified? My interpretation may be different than theirs, but are they still not Christians? I can't call a Jehovah's Witness nor a Mormon Christian as long as they deny the divinity of Our Lord, but since the RCC claims no such thing and has in fact claimed the opposite LONG BEFORE THE BAPTISTS, doesn't that mean they are at least Christian?

Set aside the mis-understandings over their doctrine and dogma, since no one here is RCC, how can we truly know what they teach? And if someone has left the RCC, doesn't that make their understanding of their faith faulty, the same as if someone had left the Baptist faith (is there one single one?) and gone to become a Muslim... would you not question them?

I don't know... I am just a Seeker Of Truth and it strikes me that so many here say they know, but I know from my friends, that they mis-understand.

In Christ...
raying:

 

[DHK]

I don't get to come here very often. I was surprised by the un-charitable behavior and attitudes on the board. Even our Lord was charitable and loving to the Pharisees. Yes, he rebuked them, but he also ate with them.
the definition of CULT:

cult [kʌlt]
n
1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a specific system of religious worship, esp with reference to its rites and deity
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a sect devoted to such a system
3. (Sociology) a quasi-religious organization using devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents
4. (Sociology) Sociol a group having an exclusive ideology and ritual practices centred on sacred symbols, esp one characterized by lack of organizational structure
5. intense interest in and devotion to a person, idea, or activity the cult of yoga
6. the person, idea, etc., arousing such devotion
7.
a. something regarded as fashionable or significant by a particular group
b. (as modifier) a cult show
8. (modifier) of, relating to, or characteristic of a cult or cults a cult figure
[from Latin cultus cultivation, refinement, from colere to till]
cultism n
cultist n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins
Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

By definition #1, Baptists, RCs, ECUSA, Anglicans, Methodists are all CULTS.

By nubmer 3, no, the RCC is NOT a cult. It is not devious, nor does it use such deceipt to gain and control its believers.

Not to be "uncharitable," but I find it hard to answer your question when you put in your profile "Christian," which can be anything (including Mormons and other cults). You have not even defined who you are, so how do I know that I am not speaking to a member of a cult. What church do you belong to; what denomination?

Secondly, why choose definition #3? Also realize you are using a secular dictionary to define a religious term, which is not always the best dictionary to use.

Be that as it may, primary definitions are usually the best, so look at the first definition given in the dictionary:

1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a specific system of religious worship, esp with reference to its rites and deity [apart from the orthodox position].

--I added the last part to make the definition more accurate.
The RCC is its own specific system of religious worship, especially with reference to its own rites, and it is set apart from orthodox Christianity. That is more accurate of a cult. When you get right down to the nitty gritty of the doctrine you eventually come to the conclusion that the deity is different also. The Christ of the RCC is not the Christ of the Bible. My God is not contained within pieces of bread.

I know many many Catholics (I live in the most Catholic state in the Union) and they are not cultish, in fact, by way of comparison, Baptists, INCLUDING SOME OF MY FELLOW CHURCH ATTENDEES, act more cultish than the RCCs!

I have friends that are Muslims. I suppose I can say that they act less cultish than some of my Catholic friends. The way that you use this word "cultish" is very subjective. I live in Canada, a predominately Catholic nation, and more likely more Catholic than the state that you live in. I was saved out of Catholicism.

I have been in Baptist Churches that don't allow women to wear pants, women can't speak, etc. I also know churches that say "you aren't really Christian if you can't speak in tongues".

Like I said, I don't know what your church background is, or even if you belong to a cult. You don't say so in your profile.
So what you are saying is this:
1. You have been to churches that practice a Godly standard of modesty.
2. You have been to churches that believe that men should occupy positions of authority (which the Bible teaches).
3. You have been in Charismatic churches which teach doctrine contrary to which the Bible teaches. (tongues are necessary for salvation)

I have had more loving attention when I needed it from my RCC friends at times.

The Bible teaches more than just love. I have encountered friends of both Hindu and Muslim backgrounds that have shown me love and would give me shelter and food and provide for me in many other ways out their love. That doesn't make them Christians.

Is it not the truth if we all love Christ, crucified? My interpretation may be different than theirs, but are they still not Christians?

Not if your interpretation is different! Do you believe the interpretation of the J.W., that Christ was crucified on a stake, and that it was simply a "spiritual resurrection," that is a denial of the bodily resurrection of our Lord. That is their interpretation. Ours is just a bit different. But according to you we just can all get along. Hogwash!

I can't call a Jehovah's Witness nor a Mormon Christian as long as they deny the divinity of Our Lord, but since the RCC claims no such thing and has in fact claimed the opposite LONG BEFORE THE BAPTISTS, doesn't that mean they are at least Christian?

They believe doctrines which would take away from the work of Christ on the cross and make his work in vain.

If one needs to be baptized in order to be saved, then Christ didn't need to die for all our sins. We pay part of the price through baptism.

They don't believe Christ paid the penalty for our sins because of their belief in purgatory. There is a place where we have to pay the penalty ourselves, and be further purged from our sins. Christ did an inadequate job. He failed in his work.

Christ died that all my sins would be forgiven. Why then would a priest need to perform last rites to make sure that my sins are forgiven, if all have been forgiven by Christ. Again they don't believe the Bible that Christ has forgiven all our sins.
I could go on and on; but their doctrine is set against the teaching of Christ atoning for our sins, and giving us forgiveness of sins. They just don't believe in these very basic doctrines. That is what makes them a cult. Their God; their Christ, is not the God of the Bible.

Set aside the mis-understandings over their doctrine and dogma, since no one here is RCC, how can we truly know what they teach?

I was Catholic for twenty years. I have studied it extensively. There are many former Catholics on this board. And there are also still some Catholics that are present here. One does not set aside doctrine. That is one thing both Christ and the apostles told us not to do. Doctrine is the most important thing. Without doctrine you cannot know Christ. Without doctrine you cannot be saved.

And if someone has left the RCC, doesn't that make their understanding of their faith faulty, the same as if someone had left the Baptist faith (is there one single one?) and gone to become a Muslim... would you not question them?

I left the Catholic Church because I saw that its doctrines not only disagreed with the Bible they taught contrary to the Bible. You can't be a Catholic and one who believes the Bible at the same time.

I don't know... I am just a Seeker Of Truth and it strikes me that so many here say they know, but I know from my friends, that they mis-understand.

In Christ...
raying:

They misunderstand because they don't know what the Bible teaches. They even may be ignorant of their own faith (Catholicism).

 

[akaspooky]

Doctrine vs Cult

I consider the Catholic cult to be in the same catagory as the Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormonism, Mary Baker Eddy, David Koresh, etc etc.

A full blown, false gosple propagating cult.

That doesnt mean that every single individual Catholic person is lost. Some may have attained saving faith somewhere along the way, and of course it is impossible for salvation to be lost after it is attained.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."(Matt.23)

"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats"(1Tim.4)
"to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife"(1Cor.7)

"Thou shalt not kill"(Rom.13)

"thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead... a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments"
(Rev.3)