Is salvation available?

[Reformed1689]

Calvin's own words

Everyone without exception can be saved

This is NOT modern day Calvinism

I believe you mean to say "Calvin's own words out of context"

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinism = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones.

I can agree with that.

Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life.

This is Calvinism as well.

The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual, because those chosen to be God's people, existed as not a people before they were a people.

You need to do better proving your point on this one.

Thus, we are chosen for salvation individually during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

You don't understand basic grammar. This does not say you are chosen during your lifetime and that would directly contradict Scriptures like Ephesians 1:4-5

 

[kyredneck]

I might be overlooking something but I don't think there are verses that directly say that. A couple of old testament verses come close but you could argue the application I guess.

So, yes, you believe a Christian can be held responsible and accountable for others going to hell, but no, you have no scripture to support it. You really, really think God has entrusted you with eternity as it pertains to others, that something you could say or fail to say or do or fail to do, some act of commission or omission on your part could result in someone being tortured for infinity?

It's odd, being released from that awful man-imposed burden was a huge source of joy for me when I came to embrace the doctrines of Sovereign Grace but now I come across supposed proponents of Sovereign Grace that believe it without pause or scripture to support it.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.

You err, not knowing the Scriptures Van. Haven't you read Matt. 11?

In Matthew 11:20 it says :
Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

In verse 21 (also Luke 10:20) it states :
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you...
Verse 23 :
And you Capernaum...

In all these places Jesus performed miracles, yet many who witnessed them did not believe in him. Think about Pharisees who saw him work miracles yet despised him.

No, you are painfully wrong Van. Seeing His miracles did not lead many to believe in Him and repent.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

None of the cited verses say or suggest the lost are unable to understand and believe spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

The message of the cross is essential to the fundamentals of the Gospel.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing." (1 Cor. 1:18)

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:14)

Your ideas are at direct variance with the Bible Van.

 

[Iconoclast]

You speak from experience as you are well known to avoid all the passages that are against reformed theology

Yes I do speak from experience. Many before you,and perhaps more after you will seek to blame God for mans sin.
Many like you misquote Calvinists and Calvin himself....out of context quotes making yourself out to be a Calvin ventriloquist. Throw in the occasional"in the greek"..which is almost always not accurate.
Your hatred of the actual teaching causes you to lash out in frustration as everyone else seems to get it.
You and other religious persons make up a system and religion that does what you want it to do.
We understand having seen it many times.
The "Reformed Theology " is derived from scripture that you despise .
That is why you get all bent when Reformed brothers move right through your offered verses as there are no non Reformed verses in the bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no point in preaching to the Elect who can only be saved as they are already chosen for this purpose

It seems like that to any who cannot grasp the teaching.Every right minded believer knows why the gospel is to be preached.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

To be "of My Sheep" refers to being open to God's word, and those not of My sheep are not open to God's word.

"My sheep" are those God has placed into Christ, thus they belong to Christ, and Christ "knows" them. Different group than those "of My sheep."

I have no idea about the distinctions you have made about "My sheep" and "of my sheep."

Christ is both the gate (whoever enters through Christ will be saved) and the good shepherd. He is the shepherd of the sheep. They know him and follow him. They do not recognize the voice of strangers. His sheep will never follow follow a stranger. Christ has laid down his life for the sheep. He has various sheep folds, but one great flock with Jesus as the good shepherd.

Humanity is composed of two groups --the sheep and the goats. The sheep are his own --believers, the goats do not belong to him. They are the lost who will be consigned to everlasting torment. Read Matthew 25:31 to 46 for an elaboration.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It seems like that to any who cannot grasp the teaching.Every right minded believer knows why the gospel is to be preached.

I am very much in my right mind

 

[DaveXR650]

So, yes, you believe a Christian can be held responsible and accountable for others going to hell, but no, you have no scripture to support it. You really, really think God has entrusted you with eternity as it pertains to others, that something you could say or fail to say or do or fail to do, some act of commission or omission on your part could result in someone being tortured for infinity?

It's odd, being released from that awful man-imposed burden was a huge source of joy for me when I came to embrace the doctrines of Sovereign Grace but now I come across supposed proponents of Sovereign Grace that believe it without pause or scripture to support it.

Well, sorry but it actually IS God's plan to use people like us to do His work. Like I said, God is sovereign so if you fail he won't be taken by surprise and have to figure out what to do next. The situation will be taken care of - don't worry. But if someone disobeys and fails God and if that doesn't bother them they need to examine themselves to see if they even are Christians. My first post on this thread listed examples of people who undertook huge effort and personal sacrifice to see people get saved. And they were Calvinists. You come on here and some others agree and act like that is some kind of aberrant theology. You need some serious self examination.

 

[kyredneck]

You need some serious self examination.

You need some serious self-examination if you think you had anything to do with your own eternal destiny, let alone anyone else's.

 

[Dave G]

so, when you were an unbeliever,

From birth to 12 years of age.

before you were saved

God's word says I was saved when He decided to make me a vessel of mercy, my friend.
He chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world.

I only came to that knowledge in 1978 when I heard the word of my Saviour, and through His word by studying it for the past 44 years, most of it within the past 20 years or so.

the Gospel was not a stubling-block and foolishness?

I'd never heard the word of God, Christ crucified for sinners, actually preached before I was 12 years old.

When I did, I immediately knew that it was true;
I never had to be convinced, never paused long enough to choose whether or not to believe it, SBG.

 

[Dave G]

WHO puts this stumbling-block before those who do not believe?

We do, in our hearts.
God has to open our hearts in order for us to listen to His words and believe them ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

 

[DaveXR650]

You need some serious self-examination if you think you had anything to do with your own eternal destiny, let alone anyone else's.

Never said I did. But I do see a lot of God's sovereignty in my salvation using very ordinary people who were interested in serving and thought it mattered. If you have gone so far with the determinism that you think that what you do doesn't matter then I'm not kidding, you really need to stop and think. William Carey gave everything to start the modern missionary movement, especially to India, and you know what - he did it. Does God get the glory? Yes. But Carey desired it with all his heart, and put everything into that goal. Satan would love it if as Calvinists, we would get all our theological ducks in a row and then sit around smugly pronouncing woe upon those poor suckers who God chose not to save instead of doing what God has graciously allowed us to participate in.

 

[Dave G]

How is the Gospel be "rejected" by most, when you have said earlier that no one can "resist" the Lord?

No one can resist the Lord when He purposes to do something ( Job 9:12, Job 42:2, Psalms 33:10, Psalms 115:3, Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:19-20 ).

If He purposes to save someone, then He saves them.
If He decides to leave someone in their sins and reserve them to everlasting punishment, then He does that.
If He decides to create one person and shown them His grace, while creating another person and not show them His grace ( Romans 9:14-24 ) and justly punishes them for willfully-committed sins that we know the punishment for ( Romans 1:32 ), then He has that right.

He has mercy and compassion on whom He will ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 ).

Further, to be able to REJECT the Gospel, these must have a FREE WILL to do so, or are you saying that they have been foreordained to do this?

The Bible teaches that man's will is biased against God...it is not free to choose or not to choose.
We've already made our choice, and continue to do so each and every day.

Mankind is not willing to come to God on our own, as our will and desires are against being reconciled to Him.
That is why He has to open our hearts, my friend.

 

[kyredneck]

Never said I did. But I do see a lot of God's sovereignty in my salvation using very ordinary people who were interested in serving and thought it mattered. If you have gone so far with the determinism that you think that what you do doesn't matter then I'm not kidding, you really need to stop and think. William Carey gave everything to start the modern missionary movement, especially to India, and you know what - he did it. Does God get the glory? Yes. But Carey desired it with all his heart, and put everything into that goal. Satan would love it if as Calvinists, we would get all our theological ducks in a row and then sit around smugly pronouncing woe upon those poor suckers who God chose not to save instead of doing what God has graciously allowed us to participate in.

You're as bad as @Martin Marprelate with an overactive imagination jumping to conclusions to malign me and my theology. This has NOTHING to do with who is greatest at sharing the gospel (which has zilch to do with the heavenly birth), this is about whether we as Christians had ANYTHING to do with our own spiritual birth let alone the spiritual birth of others.

 

[DaveXR650]

Well, if Martin sees this he's gonna be thinking "What did I do, I wasn't even on here!"? Look, I believe that you are regenerated before you have saving faith. I also believe that John Owen was right when he said that God uses "means" to work out his sovereign plan. He has chosen to use frail, ordinary people like us as one of these means to reach people. We as living sacrifices can use our minds and wills and skills and money to deliberately try to further God's plan of reaching everyone for Christ. I know that only the elect will come to Christ. But I don't know who they are and frankly don't care - everyone to ME is possibly elect. John Knox prayed "Give me Scotland or I die." Not, well, I figure the elect will be OK no matter what I do and the rest are toast anyway and I don't want to infringe on God's will.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, if Martin sees this he's gonna be thinking "What did I do, I wasn't even on here!"?

Well, Martin and I have been locking horns over the years and I fully intended for him to see it. I used to consider it as Fullerite vs. Gillite but lately he sounds more like a Finneyist.

 

[DaveXR650]

"Finneyist"! Them's fighten words for a good Calvinist. I'm afraid though that Martin's in for a tough time. Being from England he'll be going by the Marquess of Queensberry rules and he's taking on someone with a name that sounds an awful lot like Kentucky Redneck! He should be warned.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"Finneyist"! Them's fighten words for a good Calvinist. I'm afraid though that Martin's in for a tough time. Being from England he'll be going by the Marquess of Queensberry rules and he's taking on someone with a name that sounds an awful lot like Kentucky Redneck! He should be warned.

I have no intention of replying to @kyredneck on this thread. I have made my points on the other thread and people can judge for themselves whether or not I am a Finneyist.
'Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow, so a curse without cause shall not alight' (Proverbs 26:2)