Is salvation available?

[SavedByGrace]

God's word says I was saved when He decided to make me a vessel of mercy, my friend.
He chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world.

so you were SAVED before you REPENTED and BELIEVED? This, my friend, is IMPOSSIBLE! or else Jesus Christ is wrong! He is very clear in Mark 1:15; Luke 13:1-5; 24:47 (ESV, NASB, NIV, AB, CSB, NET, etc); and Peter Acts 2:37-38, etc. I think NOT!

 

[AustinC]

so you were SAVED before you REPENTED and BELIEVED? This, my friend, is IMPOSSIBLE! or else Jesus Christ is wrong! He is very clear in Mark 1:15; Luke 13:1-5; 24:47 (ESV, NASB, NIV, AB, CSB, NET, etc); and Peter Acts 2:37-38, etc. I think NOT!

Matthew 19:24-26

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

It's very clear that you have misunderstood Jesus.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Matthew 19:24-26

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

It's very clear that you have misunderstood Jesus.

you always AVOID what verses are given, and try to quote from other places, that have ZERO to do with what I have said!

Now simply answer the verses that I have given

 

[AustinC]

you always AVOID what verses are given, and try to quote from other places, that have ZERO to do with what I have said!

Now simply answer the verses that I have given

First verse: Not a verse about eternal life. It is a verse about the Mosaic Covenant and the Kingdom being restored to Israel if they repent.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Also, the verses below are not eternal salvation verses. They are, like Mark 1, about Israel and repentance to establish Mosaic Covenant relationship.
(sbg, you really don't understand God as a covenant making God with a covenant people.)
Luke 13:1-5
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

I am sure you will now react with some big bold letters declaring myself and all others to be wrong and only you to be correct.

 

[SavedByGrace]

First verse: Not a verse about eternal life. It is a verse about the Mosaic Covenant and the Kingdom being restored to Israel if they repent.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Also, the verses below are not eternal salvation verses. They are, like Mark 1, about Israel and repentance to establish Mosaic Covenant relationship.
(sbg, you really don't understand God as a covenant making God with a covenant people.)
Luke 13:1-5
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

I am sure you will now react with some big bold letters declaring myself and all others to be wrong and only you to be correct.

In the first place, there is zero NT evidence that says that the Gospel that was preached to the Jews under the Old Covenant, that included "repentance and faith", together, was changed when it was offered to the Gentiles.

In the second place, Jesus commanded at the close of His earthly Ministry, that, " and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47). This is under the New Covenant, as Jesus had already Risen.

In the third place, on the Day of Pentecost, which is the New Covenant, Peter speaking by the authority of the Holy Spirit, is clear when those who were "convicted" by his Message, and asked, "what must we DO", to which Peter replies, "REPENT...FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS". Showing that REPENTANCE is not simply a change of mind towards God and Jesus Christ, but also includes personal sins.

Peter here says what Jesus does in Luke 24:47. Are you saying that Jesus and Peter are both wrong, and your theology is right?

In the fourth place, in 2 Corinthians 7:10, in regard to salvation, Paul says;

"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death"

Is Paul wrong here to say that the sinner must have "godly sorrow that produces repentance leading to salvation"?

Notice the order here. 1. godly sorrow; 2. produces repentance; 2. that leads to salvation. It is very clear, that true repentance is essential BEFORE a sinner can be saved.

This is what the Bible says.

 

[kyredneck]

I have no intention of replying to @kyredneck on this thread. I have made my points on the other thread and people can judge for themselves whether or not I am a Finneyist.

The other thread was closed before I could respond, but no matter, in no way shape fashion or form did you show that a Christian can be held responsible and accountable for others going to hell.

It amazes me that I'm even having this conversation with a supposed 'pillar' of the Reformed community on this board. Blows my mind, for real.

 

[percho]

[1] “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-6 (God determined, who goes to heaven, and before ‘creation’ - so check!)

[2] A word search turned up no examples of the phrase “hastens the day” in the Bible. Can you provide a verse?


They are two different Gospels, but only one is actually found in Scripture.

Again, SBG,
Please read what precedes it:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Here's what I see when I read this:

1) The believer is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
2) God has chosen them "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. For what purpose?
3) So that they should be holy and without blame before Him, in love.
4) They were predestinated ( their destiny set before-hand ) to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to what? The good pleasure of His will.
5) This was all done to the praise of the glory of His grace.

According to the above, the reason that God blessed the believer was because they were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world.
The purpose for that choosing, is so that they would be holy and without blame before Him in love.

Not only that, their destiny was set by God to be His adopted children, and that adoption was by Jesus Christ to Himself, as His brethren ( Romans 8:29 ).

Is that not what you see when you read it?

One Question?

What has God made known to those you put in blue and does, what was made known, have anything to do with the OP?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.

.

I think the whole Bible says otherwise about people believing because of miracles.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

The man-centered Calvinist doctrine makes God responsible for the lost going into eternal punishment, scripture indicates some of the lost might be saved through effective witness. For example, some people would have repented had they seen the miracles Jesus performed elsewhere. Or the fields are white with harvest.

Do the lost, living today, have an opportunity for salvation, or is the outcome of their life a foregone conclusion? Calvinism says "a foregone conclusion" but scripture says the kingdom of God is at hand.

Two very different gospels...

It's easier to attack a strawman rather than deal with the previous teaching that leads into/explains unconditional election, isn't it?

 

[AustinC]

In the first place, there is zero NT evidence that says that the Gospel that was preached to the Jews under the Old Covenant, that included "repentance and faith", together, was changed when it was offered to the Gentiles.

In the second place, Jesus commanded at the close of His earthly Ministry, that, " and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47). This is under the New Covenant, as Jesus had already Risen.

In the third place, on the Day of Pentecost, which is the New Covenant, Peter speaking by the authority of the Holy Spirit, is clear when those who were "convicted" by his Message, and asked, "what must we DO", to which Peter replies, "REPENT...FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS". Showing that REPENTANCE is not simply a change of mind towards God and Jesus Christ, but also includes personal sins.

Peter here says what Jesus does in Luke 24:47. Are you saying that Jesus and Peter are both wrong, and your theology is right?

In the fourth place, in 2 Corinthians 7:10, in regard to salvation, Paul says;

"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death"

Is Paul wrong here to say that the sinner must have "godly sorrow that produces repentance leading to salvation"?

Notice the order here. 1. godly sorrow; 2. produces repentance; 2. that leads to salvation. It is very clear, that true repentance is essential BEFORE a sinner can be saved.

This is what the Bible says.

Is the New Covenant no different than the Old Covenant (Mosaic/Sinai Covenant)?
Again, I point you to Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 so you can see the good news that comes in the New Covenant. To say there is no difference is to admit ignorance.

As long as you teach a required human action being mandatory before God can extend his saving grace, you will be requiring works as the means of salvation. This is the same thing the Judaizers believed and the disciples. This is what lead to the dialogue I shared where Jesus declares "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Jesus tells you that your declaration of impossibility, without humans choosing to repent first, is incorrect. With God all things are possible.

 

[Van]

I can agree with that.
This is Calvinism as well.

You need to do better proving your point on this one.

You don't understand basic grammar. This does not say you are chosen during your lifetime and that would directly contradict Scriptures like Ephesians 1:4-5

Here we have the absurdity defense of the absurd, which is Calvinism.

 

[Van]

You err, not knowing the Scriptures Van. Haven't you read Matt. 11?

SNIP
In all these places Jesus performed miracles, yet many who witnessed them did not believe in him. Think about Pharisees who saw him work miracles yet despised him.

No, you are painfully wrong Van. Seeing His miracles did not lead many to believe in Him and repent.

Here we have a straight-up denial of Christ's statement. And since Christ's statement is true, then God has not precluded the lost from responding to effective ministry. Thus Calvinism has be shown to be bogus once again...

 

[Van]

I think the whole Bible says otherwise about people believing because of miracles.

Here we have a straight-up denial of Christ's statement. And Christ did not say people would have believed solely because of His miracles.

 

[Van]

It's easier to attack a strawman rather than deal with the previous teaching that leads into/explains unconditional election, isn't it?

Once again, no answer is given to the question:
Do the lost, living today, have an opportunity for salvation, or is the outcome of their life a foregone conclusion? Calvinism says "a foregone conclusion" but scripture says the kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Here we have a straight-up denial of Christ's statement. And Christ did not say people would have believed solely because of His miracles.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not seeing miracles.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Once again, no answer is given to the question:
Do the lost, living today, have an opportunity for salvation, or is the outcome of their life a foregone conclusion? Calvinism says "a foregone conclusion" but scripture says the kingdom of God is at hand.

Thank you for proving my point Van.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This Thread will be closed no sooner than 330 pm EST / 1230 pm PST

 

[DaveXR650]

Once again, no answer is given to the question:
Do the lost, living today, have an opportunity for salvation, or is the outcome of their life a foregone conclusion?

Van, here is the answer : YES
There is enough revealed in scripture to indicate that God is sovereign in everything, even salvation. God has graciously given us humans glimpses of that. But as far as I am concerned, as a Calvinist, everyone who is reached with the gospel has an opportunity to repent and believe. Those that refuse it are responsible for their choice. Those that do not get to hear the gospel are guilty for their own sins but we are part of the plan to reach them and can fail and be guilty of failing. There are some Calvinists on here who might freak out over that but all the Puritans are on my side on this as well as more modern Calvinists like Horatius Bonar, Charles Spurgeon, and moderns like John MacArthur and Paul Washer.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Here we have a straight-up denial of Christ's statement. And since Christ's statement is true, then God has not precluded the lost from responding to effective ministry. Thus Calvinism has be shown to be bogus once again...

I gave you straight up what Christ said in Matthew 11 and Luke 10. Even though Jesus performed miracles in their midst, many did not believe and repent. You are you unwilling to admit your distortions of the Word of God because your ego won't allow it. Scripture is staring you right in the face Van. What is common knowledge among most Christians is denied by you. You don't know the Scriptures well enough to know that many Pharisees were present when Jesus performed his mighty miracles. Yet because their hearts were hardened they would not believe in him and certainly did not repent. When the scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign (i.e. miracles), no sign was to be given to them except the sign of Jonah.

 

[Reformed1689]

Here we have the absurdity defense of the absurd, which is Calvinism.

Noticed you didn't actually deal with my post.