Is Satan A Real Entity Who Can Influence English Language Translators and Subtlety Impact Their Translations

[David Lamb]

The Methodist church, birthed from the Keswick movement in England and the first of the "higher life" groups which was formed into a Christian denomination who likewise held to a faith plus works salvation system.

The Keswick Convention didn't start until 1875, long after Methodism started with the Wesleys.

 

[JonC]

This person, if he is real, needs to be discussed in the context of Bible translations and dynamic equivalences and paraphrases, because if he is real, he has skin in the game.

I recall a passage in Matthew 4 that he (mis)quoted Psa 91:11 to Jesus Christ as he tempted him to act independently of the Father.

If the answer is yes, and he does exist in the character in which he is presented by the scriptures, the next question is, Has he ever influenced any English Language translations and how would we know?

I bring this person up because he rarely if ever gets any ink on the Baptist Board and it's like he does not exist.

I would say "no", although this depends on the context of "translation".

If we are talking about legitimate translations designed to communicate God's Word in a language other than the original then I'd say "no" because God is able to preserve His Word through various translations (e.g., the NKJV, NIV, NASB). Another reason is readers understand these are translations and must be studied as translations.

BUT if you are talking about agenda-driven translations where the result is to encourage a secular worldview then I see this as possible (e.g., LGBTQ Bible, Jefferson Bible).

The exception may be the KJV as it was commissioned to promote a secular agenda (specifically to support the English monarchy) but I believe the translators to have also been fairhful to their sources as best they could.

 

[John of Japan]

At some point down the road I might test that theory on one or two of your posts and see how it works with you. Maybe adjust a few of your words to suit myself and present it with my own edits. I can already imagine a strong protest from you with, THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID. You would be right to do it and I would be a liar if I weakened your points with my efforts..

I think you missed my point. I talked about verses in the NKJV that are exactly the same as the KJV. Have those verses ceased to be the Word of God simply because they are in the NKJV?

Again, I will not say "That is not what I said" unless you twist my words into a different meaning. For example, if I say, "I was in the auditorium" and you quote me as saying "I was in the sanctuary," to me that is too small of an issue to argue about.

The gender of Gail Riplinger is a dead giveaway that she is out of order in her calling whether her conclusions in her book are good or bad. That is all I need to know. I am not interested in her work.

I completely agree. But many of your persuasion think she is the cat's meow! D. A. Waite backed her completely until he found out she had lied about having two divorces.

With all due respect to you as a missionary translator, I think you are missing the point that I am only speaking of multiplied new English translations, not what you do of providing a Bible to churches in the language of people who don't have one. I applaud your efforts in this.

Thank you for applauding my efforts. However, to me the issue of the KJV and missionary translations is the same. Almost all fundamentalist missionaries still use the Shinkaiyaku, patterned after the NKJV. They have to. It's the only conservative version of the whole Bible in Japanese, which is of course why we are working on a version from the traditional texts. So even the most radical of KJVO men have to use that version. Then they go home on furlough and preach from and laud the KJV. To me that is a big issue.

Satan has a world wide church that is either competing with or infiltrating and compromising the true church.

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 ¶ But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(the second letter to this church which was the third letter of Paul was written in 51/52 AD. The leaven has been working for a long while)

True, Satan is at work in the world. But again, I believe he fears the Word of God, and hates the poorest version. My grandfather had a pamphlet, "Sermon from a Catholic Bible." Now, the Sword of the Lord's current editor is very strong KJVO, but he still has that pamphlet for sale: Sermon from a Catholic Bible. Do you agree that people can get saved from a non-KJV Bible?

In other words, do you agree with the "The Translators to the Reader" at the beginning of the 1611 KJV, which said: “We affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God.”

 

[John of Japan]

Concerning cult Bibles such as the New World Translation, I don't think Satan has to do a thing about influencing them. I've communicated with JW translators both in the US and Japan. and have rebuked them in both cases as being poor translators. It is fully sufficient to say that translators of cult versions do their best to change verses that disagree with them, such as John 1:1. However, I think such men are perfectly capable of mistranslating with their human brains, and don't need the Devil to help them. Also, I could use either the English NWT or the Japanese one to lead a soul to Christ.

By the way, the Japanese JWs appreciated my input enough that they gave me a copy of their Japanese NWT in the reference Bible format. Unfortunately, that is the only reference Bible in Japanese. Yet here in the US, reference Bible after reference Bible is published. That's not right. We should have no more English translations or reference Bibles until we have translated the Bible into every language on earth.

 

[JD731]

The Keswick Convention didn't start until 1875, long after Methodism started with the Wesleys.

Whether one produced the other is an argument for later but the greater point for me is that about this time a transition in Christian thought and practice was being made that resulted in two extremes that greatly compromised the church of Jesus Christ and weakened it. It was intellectualism on the one hand and emotionalism on the other. Both were Satanic led attacks, that God permitted, and that negatively impacted the Scriptural authority of God's word.

Transition, you ask? God, in his providence is bringing about his design for world history of the nations and the church. This is prophesied to be a renewal, a restitution of all things, a regeneration to his original intent before sin corrupted all things. This includes his creation and his creatures in spite of work arounds that are needed because of wicked and deceived angels and men. There will be no charge against God when this is all over because he has not over ruled the will of men and angels and has permitted all to choose. This is accomplished because I have read the last two chapters in the holy scriptures that tells me this.

The fact that God is providentially in control of his creation and can and does permit transitions throughout history for his own purposes can be demonstrated from the KJV in this passage.

2 Thess 2: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

If Paul told them he told us because his words have been preserved. The time table is God's and the Spirit hinders Satan and wicked men from accomplishing their purposes outside that time frame.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[JesusFan]

1901 happened because of the 1881 who overstepped their commission.

Actually was due to the 1881 having 'British" English, and 1901 Asv was "American" English

 

[JesusFan]

I quoted a couple of verses in my last post concerning the activities of Satan. It is interesting to me that those whom John was referencing of going out from them were likely those who insisting on keeping certain segments of the law of Moses to be saved. This precipitated the Jerusalem counsel to determine how the gentiles must relate to that Law. It is a works religion. Read about this in Acts 14-15 and the letter to the Galatians, the first of Paul's letters written in 49 AD.

In 1901, the modern Pentecostal movement began with the result of birthing new denominations and all of them taught and believed in a faith plus works salvation. The Methodist church, birthed from the Keswick movement in England and the first of the "higher life" groups which was formed into a Christian denomination who likewise held to a faith plus works salvation system.

There was a definite transition in the providence of God and things took a real change during those days and the Christian church has been adversely affected. It is a test of our faithfulness to God and his Bible. Congregationalists like DL Moody was caught up in this higher life philosophy according to his biography that I read a few years ago.

The correction for this attitude was where it had always been for us Americans. The KJV Bible and it is still yet.

The Modern versions such as Nas/ERsv/Nkjv all teach same doctrines as the Kjv though

 

[JesusFan]

I don't know any bible translators personally, and the prayer diary I get from Wycliffe Bible Translators tends to give details of projects, problems in the countries being worked in, and matters for praise. I can't remember reading reports of how the devil attacks translators. I can imagine various things, but I don't really know.

Interesting that KJVO keep bashing on modern versions, yet EVERY member on the translation teams for nas/Esv/Niv/Nkjv etc agree to inspiration and inerrancy of the originals, to the essential doctrines of the faith etc

 

[JesusFan]

Concerning cult Bibles such as the New World Translation, I don't think Satan has to do a thing about influencing them. I've communicated with JW translators both in the US and Japan. and have rebuked them in both cases as being poor translators. It is fully sufficient to say that translators of cult versions do their best to change verses that disagree with them, such as John 1:1. However, I think such men are perfectly capable of mistranslating with their human brains, and don't need the Devil to help them. Also, I could use either the English NWT or the Japanese one to lead a soul to Christ.

By the way, the Japanese JWs appreciated my input enough that they gave me a copy of their Japanese NWT in the reference Bible format. Unfortunately, that is the only reference Bible in Japanese. Yet here in the US, reference Bible after reference Bible is published. That's not right. We should have no more English translations or reference Bibles until we have translated the Bible into every language on earth.

The various bible publishers should agree to waive/suspend copyright for those bible versions to be used as missionary outreach

 

[JesusFan]

Whether one produced the other is an argument for later but the greater point for me is that about this time a transition in Christian thought and practice was being made that resulted in two extremes that greatly compromised the church of Jesus Christ and weakened it. It was intellectualism on the one hand and emotionalism on the other. Both were Satanic led attacks, that God permitted, and that negatively impacted the Scriptural authority of God's word.

Transition, you ask? God, in his providence is bringing about his design for world history of the nations and the church. This is prophesied to be a renewal, a restitution of all things, a regeneration to his original intent before sin corrupted all things. This includes his creation and his creatures in spite of work arounds that are needed because of wicked and deceived angels and men. There will be no charge against God when this is all over because he has not over ruled the will of men and angels and has permitted all to choose. This is accomplished because I have read the last two chapters in the holy scriptures that tells me this.

The fact that God is providentially in control of his creation and can and does permit transitions throughout history for his own purposes can be demonstrated from the KJV in this passage.

2 Thess 2: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

If Paul told them he told us because his words have been preserved. The time table is God's and the Spirit hinders Satan and wicked men from accomplishing their purposes outside that time frame.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Modern versions of the Bible were God getting the word of his out to the people in the common language of their day , just as was the 1611 Kjv

 

[John of Japan]

Whether one produced the other is an argument for later but the greater point for me is that about this time a transition in Christian thought and practice was being made that resulted in two extremes that greatly compromised the church of Jesus Christ and weakened it. It was intellectualism on the one hand and emotionalism on the other. Both were Satanic led attacks, that God permitted, and that negatively impacted the Scriptural authority of God's word.

The Holiness movement--Wesleyans, etc. Resulted in perfectionism, belief that sickness is always from sin, etc.

The Keswick Movement--R. A. Torrey, Hudson Taylor, and many other prominent fundamentalists of the day. Keswick theology is not emotionalism, but a well thought out theology of sanctification. The Holiness movement gradually veered away from Keswick theology.

 

[Jerome]

None other than John Calvin attacked Bible translator (into French) Sebastian Castellio along these very lines!

A preface in the Calvin-approved Bible de Genève warned against rival translations, and defamed Bible translator Sebastian Castellio in particular as an 'instrument of Satan' in his efforts:

Gallica ❧ Le Nouveau Testament....Reveu & corrigé de nouveau sur le grec, par l'advis des ministres de Geneve

“Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”

 

[JD731]

I would say "no", although this depends on the context of "translation".

If we are talking about legitimate translations designed to communicate God's Word in a language other than the original then I'd say "no" because God is able to preserve His Word through various translations (e.g., the NKJV, NIV, NASB). Another reason is readers understand these are translations and must be studied as translations.

BUT if you are talking about agenda-driven translations where the result is to encourage a secular worldview then I see this as possible (e.g., LGBTQ Bible, Jefferson Bible).

The exception may be the KJV as it was commissioned to promote a secular agenda (specifically to support the English monarchy) but I believe the translators to have also been fairhful to their sources as best they could.

You are saying, no, Satan has not influenced translators and subtly impact their translations for the reasons you give above.

My question would then be, why would a perfectly omniscience and holy God see a need to have his words translated in the same language, over and over in the last days of his age division? It does not make sense.

Have you ever read the prayers of the apostle to the gentiles, Paul, for us in his epistles. I will start a thread later on about what God desires for us in the way of knowledge of his word. Satan has no doubt read them and is involved in confusing it with divisions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think people by their own will interpret things as they see.. many interpret to fit their own belief. we do not need satan to do it. he has enough people that will do it without his influence

 

[JesusFan]

The Holiness movement--Wesleyans, etc. Resulted in perfectionism, belief that sickness is always from sin, etc.

The Keswick Movement--R. A. Torrey, Hudson Taylor, and many other prominent fundamentalists of the day. Keswick theology is not emotionalism, but a well thought out theology of sanctification. The Holiness movement gradually veered away from Keswick theology.

wasn't one of their statements was "let go and let God?"

 

[JesusFan]

The Holiness movement--Wesleyans, etc. Resulted in perfectionism, belief that sickness is always from sin, etc.

The Keswick Movement--R. A. Torrey, Hudson Taylor, and many other prominent fundamentalists of the day. Keswick theology is not emotionalism, but a well thought out theology of sanctification. The Holiness movement gradually veered away from Keswick theology.

Holiness Movement seemed to spill over into creating Pentecostalism charismatics and the like

 

[JesusFan]

You are saying, no, Satan has not influenced translators and subtly impact their translations for the reasons you give above.

My question would then be, why would a perfectly omniscience and holy God see a need to have his words translated in the same language, over and over in the last days of his age division? It does not make sense.

Have you ever read the prayers of the apostle to the gentiles, Paul, for us in his epistles. I will start a thread later on about what God desires for us in the way of knowledge of his word. Satan has no doubt read them and is involved in confusing it with divisions.

God would desire that His word woulf get out into the common language of the people for that time, correct?

 

[John of Japan]

wasn't one of their statements was "let go and let God?"

I don't think so.

 

[John of Japan]

Holiness Movement seemed to spill over into creating Pentecostalism charismatics and the like

That's over-simplifying it.

 

[John of Japan]

The various bible publishers should agree to waive/suspend copyright for those bible versions to be used as missionary outreach

Except that ideally all missionary translations should be done from the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek.