Is Speaking inTongues of the Devil?

I dont in any way doubt that they are the word of God, the point is that both references were taken by their authors from the Book of Enoch. Jesus Himself used the term "Son of Man" also found in the book of Enoch.

The book of Enoch was used for centuries by the early church, I mention this to show you that the biblical canon of the word was not organised by the end of the first century.

Again, the only thing that can be Perfect is Jesus.

 

That which is "perfect"---Ref:I Cor. 13:10.

The Gk. word: "teleios", translated "perfect", means complete, that which has reached its term, limit; full, wanting nothing, fullgrown.

The modern day connotation of "perfect" has somehow come to mean "sinlessness", which, of course, would apply to Jesus. "Complete" and "without sin" are two completely different notions which are not even remotely synonymous.

A careful reading of the English (KJV--any edition), will show that "that which is perfect" cannot be referring to Jesus. But, if "that which is 'complete'..."refers to the Bible, it all harmonizes--The Book of Revelation had not been written at the time Paul wrote to the Church at Corinth. Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Unveiling of the Bride, completes the Scripture, the Bible is mature, full-grown--circa: A.D. 95. Read Rev. Ch. 22.

There is no more need for childish things--for the past 19 centuries--why go back to them now?

We are still on the milk--just like the Corinthians. They were really mixed up.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

DHK, the non-cessationist view of Scripture is easily attested to by church history. Consider Eusebius 'Church History' Bk IV ch 7:-

"These things Irenaeus, in agreement with the accounts already given by us, records in the work which comprises five books, and to which he gave the title Refutation and Overthrow of the Knowledge Falsely So-called. In the second book of the same treatise he shows that manifestations of divine and miraculous power continued to his time in some of the churches. He says: "But so far do they come short of raising the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles through prayer. And oftentimes in the brotherhood, when, on account of some neces sity, our entire Church has besought with fasting and much supplication, the spirit of the dead has returned, and the man has been restored through the prayers of the saints." And again, after other remarks, he says :

"If they will say that even the Lord did these things in mere appearance, we will refer them to the prophetic writings, and show from them that all things were beforehand spoken of him in this manner, and were strictly fulfilled; and that he alone is the Son of God. Wherefore his true disciples, receiving grace from him, perform such works in his Name for the benefit of other men, as each has received the gift from him. For some of them drive out demons effectually and truly, so that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently believe and unite with the Church. Others have a foreknowledge of future events, and visions, and prophetic revelations. Still others heal the sick by the laying on of hands, and restore them to health. And, as we have said, even dead persons have been raised, and remained with us many years. But why should we say more ? It is not possible to recount the number of gifts which the Church, throughout all the world, has received from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and exercises every day for the benefit of the heathen, never deceiving any nor doing it for money. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister." 6And in another place the same author writes: "As also we hear that many brethren in the Church possess prophetic gifts, and speak, through the Spirit, with all kinds of tongues, and bring to light the secret things of men for their good, and declare the mysteries of God." So much in regard to the fact that various gifts remained among those who were worthy even until that time."

I have a copy of Irenaeus' 'Against Heresies' at home but not to hand so I can't give you the ch and verse but rest asssured it does indeed refer to the same phenomena.

Bro. James, 'teleios' is much wider in meaning than you state. Teleios, (together with its associated similar words, teleioo, teleiotes, and teleiosis) is used frequently by Paul. You will have noticed by now that I have failed to give translations of these Greek words yet, and therein lies part of the problem: teleios and co have multiple meanings. Just as a Greek would have trouble translating our word ‘love’ (is it agape, eros, storge or phile?), so too do we have difficulties with teleios. Basically, it can be translated, inter alia, in all or some of the following ways: complete, finished, perfect, having-achieved-the-end-result, accomplished, fulfilled, full-grown, fully-developed, adult and mature. It derives from the Greek noun telos, meaning end/ goal, and, as a further aid to our understanding of the word, the teleological school of philosophical thought essentially asserts that ‘the end justifies the means’ (e.g.: that the bombing of Hiroshima was morally right because it saved lives in the long-run). To a degree, the meaning can vary according to the context but I would suggest that, by and large, teleios (and the associated words above) encompasses all of these meanings. Judge for yourself by these examples of the use of teleios-rooted words, both in Pauline texts and other New Testament writings: 1 Cor 14:20; 2 Cor 12:9; Eph 4:13; Phil 1:6; 3:12-16; Matt 5:48: Heb 2:10; 10:1; 12:23; James 1:4; and 1 Jn 2:5.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The chuch fathers, for the most part, were a confused bunch of men. Most of them did not believe in the pre-trib, pre-mil return of Christ, yet we do. Origen was "the Father of Arianism," and declared a heretik by the church fathers themselves. Ireneaus, whom you quote, believed that Christ lived to the ripe old age of 80. It was one of the early church fathers that brought in the doctrine of purgatory. Why should we put any faith in these confused men who held to many strange beliefs.

I would rather put my faith in the Word of God, and glean my doctrine from the precepts that it teaches.
DHK

 

I'm not asking you to believe their doctrines, just their reporting of facts.

I too put my faith in the Word of God, BTW.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I realize that. You are reporting what they believe concerning 1Cor.13. I am reporting why I do not believe their opinions on the same passage.
DHK

 

We will have to agree to differ then. I respect your opinion as a brother in the Lord and a moderator of the BB (that doesn't sound too crawly,does it?!), but have to differ with it in all integrity

Yours in Christ

Matt