Is the (AV) Translated from the Textus Receptus (TR)?

[EdSutton]

Some renderings may be in the 1611 KJV because they were kept from the Bishops' Bible, whose text the translators were to follow according to one of the rules given them.

There is evidence from the 1600's that indicates that the KJV translators may not have been responsible for the rendering “Easter” at this verse. Instead they may have accepted the Geneva Bible’s rendering “Passover.” Just as the KJV translators changed the Bishops’ Bible’s two other uses of “Easter” at John 11:55 to “Passover,” they may have also changed this third use at Acts 12:4. While Tyndale and Coverdale had used the rendering “Easter” several times for the Jewish Passover, the later English translators had increasingly changed this rendering to “Passover.“

In 1671, Edward Whiston indicated that a great prelate, the chief supervisor of the KJV, inserted “Easter” back into the text of the KJV at this verse as one of the 14 changes he was said to have made (Life, p. 49). In his 1648 sermon entitled “Truth and Love,“ Thomas Hill also noted that Acts 12:4 “was another place that was altered (as you have heard) to keep up that holy time of Easter, as they would think it” (Six Sermons, p. 25). Was the goal of inserting the rendering “Easter” back into the text at this verse in order to present faithfully the meaning of the Greek word in English or was it intended to give the readers a different meaning? This 1600's evidence indicates that this rendering was inserted for the purpose of keeping up the Church of England’s celebration of the holy time of Easter.

I would note you have posted the gist of this several times, on the BB, including Post #48 in this thread.

Do you think there's any real danger of this ever actually getting through?

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

Some renderings may be in the 1611 KJV because they were kept from the Bishops' Bible, whose text the translators were to follow according to one of the rules given them.

There is evidence from the 1600's that indicates that the KJV translators may not have been responsible for the rendering “Easter” at this verse. Instead they may have accepted the Geneva Bible’s rendering “Passover.” Just as the KJV translators changed the Bishops’ Bible’s two other uses of “Easter” at John 11:55 to “Passover,” they may have also changed this third use at Acts 12:4. While Tyndale and Coverdale had used the rendering “Easter” several times for the Jewish Passover, the later English translators had increasingly changed this rendering to “Passover.“

In 1671, Edward Whiston indicated that a great prelate, the chief supervisor of the KJV, inserted “Easter” back into the text of the KJV at this verse as one of the 14 changes he was said to have made (Life, p. 49). In his 1648 sermon entitled “Truth and Love,“ Thomas Hill also noted that Acts 12:4 “was another place that was altered (as you have heard) to keep up that holy time of Easter, as they would think it” (Six Sermons, p. 25). Was the goal of inserting the rendering “Easter” back into the text at this verse in order to present faithfully the meaning of the Greek word in English or was it intended to give the readers a different meaning? This 1600's evidence indicates that this rendering was inserted for the purpose of keeping up the Church of England’s celebration of the holy time of Easter.

I noticed Tyndale used Easter for the spots other than Acts 12:4.

But I don't think KJV made a mistake by leaving Easter only in Ac 12:4
They must have at least distinguished it from other verses intentionally because they encountered a problem with the time sequence.

At the moment, I think I explained enough, but I intend to study on Cosmologie der Babylonier and some other sources some day.

 

[Jerome]

Easter (ester) in English and Ostern (German) were brought into the Bible, in 'translating' by two individuals, namely by Dr. Martin Luther . . . and by Mr. William Tyndale . . . In fact, I will challenge one to show any other major 'Western' language version that ever renders "πασχα" in this manner, as "Easter."

Eastre was employed in the Anglo-Saxon Gospels many centuries before Luther and Tyndale.

 

[rsr]

Indeed it was, though the Wycliffe translators opted simply to transliterate it as pask.

BTW: A parallel compilation of the gospels in Gothic and Anglo-Saxon with the translations of Wycliffe and Tyndale is available at:

http://www.archive.org/details/gothicanglosaxon00ulfi

 

[Palatka51]

6. Matthew 23:24 is a humorous example of a printing error, not a translation error. The King James Version reads, "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." It's obvious to everyone that the word "at" should be "out."

Not if you look at it in this respect; as in straining to swallow a gnat but easily swallowing a camel. Much is to be made of what many are doing to belittle those that prefer the KJV.

Yes I know that I have come into this thread a little late (and that it is possible that this has already been discussed) but that quote Dr Bob gave us just (pardon the pun) stuck in my craw.

 

[Jerome]

As Eliyahu correctly noted, the erroneous assertion that strain at is a "misprint" was decisively debunked several years ago here.

 

[EdSutton]

Not if you look at it in this respect; as in straining to swallow a gnat but easily swallowing a camel. Much is to be made of what many are doing to belittle those that prefer the KJV.

Yes I know that I have come into this thread a little late (and that it is possible that this has already been discussed) but that quote Dr Bob gave us just (pardon the pun) stuck in my craw.

Some of the 'logic' offered and some of the ideas that are sometimes presented in this forum are very hard to swallow, I agree.

Ed

 

[Keith M]

I noticed Tyndale used Easter for the spots other than Acts 12:4.

But I don't think KJV made a mistake by leaving Easter only in Ac 12:4
They must have at least distinguished it from other verses intentionally because they encountered a problem with the time sequence.

At the moment, I think I explained enough, but I intend to study on Cosmologie der Babylonier and some other sources some day.

Tyndale is also responsible for coining the word "Passover." In his Bible translation, Tyndale used ester/easter in the NT because of its familiarity to readers. Later, when he translated the OT, Tyndale coined and began using the more accurate word Passover.

When Tyndale applied his talents to the translation of the New Testament from Greek into English, he was not satisfied with the use of a completely foreign word, and decided to take into account the fact that the season of the passover was known generally to English people as 'Easter', notwithstanding the lack of any actual connection between the meanings of the two words. The Greek word occurs twenty-nine times in the New Testament, and Tyndale has ester or easter fourteen times, esterlambe eleven times, esterfest once, and paschall lambe three times.

When Tyndale began his translation of the Pentateuch he was again faced with the problem in Exodus 12.11 and twenty-one other places, and no doubt recognising that easter in this context would be an anachronism he coined a new word, passover, and used it consistently in all twenty-two places. It is therefore to Tyndale that our language is indebted for this meaningful and appropriate word. His labours on the Old Testament left little time for revision of the New Testament, with the result that while passover is found in his 1530 Pentateuch, ester remained in the N.T. of 1534, having been used in his first edition several years before he coined the new word passover.
- T. H. Brown
"The Use of 'Easter' in Acs 12.4"
http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/easter.asp

Maybe this will help, Eliyahu...

Passover is certainly to be preferred to Easter, as there is no evidence that Christians in the time of Herod observed an annual commemoration of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, or any commemoration other than on the first day of each week. Herod would not have been concerned with any Christian observances in any case, and his intention was to bring Peter forth after the passover. Tyndale was the first to use Easter in an English translation, and he was also the first to use Passover. His renderings influenced all subsequent English translations, some using one, and some the other, until in course of time Passover prevailed. If Tyndale had lived a little longer it is probable that he would have subjected his New Testament to a further careful revision, consistently rendering the Greek pascha by passover in every passage in which the word occurs.
- T. H. Brown
"The Use of 'Easter' in Acts 12.4"
http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/easter.asp

Easter wasn't celebrated at the time Acts was written. Therefore, Herod could not have intended to bring Peter out after Easter.

In his article "Acts 12:4 - Passover and Easter" Brian Tegart shows that the Passover Feast and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are one and the same.

Many KJV-only authors and supporters then argue that since Passover preceeds the Feast of Unleavened Bread, then when Herod took Peter (Acts 12:3) right before or during the "days of unleavened bread", then Herod could not have been waiting for "Passover" since it was already past, and thus the correct translation cannot be "Passover" but instead must be "Easter" (and understood a pagan holiday, not the Christian commemoration of Christ's resurrection).

KJV-only supporters who use the above line of argumentation need to do a little more study. There are two serious flaws in their thinking. First, they have forgotten that although for non-Jews days start and end at midnight, for Jews days start and end at sundown. This is crucial! Yes, the 14th is "the Passover" because that's when the Passover Lamb is sacrificed, but it is not until later that night that the Passover Feast (the eating of the lamb) takes place - in other words, the Passover Sacrifice is at the end of the 14th while the Passover Feast is on the beginning of the 15th:

Exodus 12:8 (KJV) "And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it."

Deut 16:6b-7 (KJV) "there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. [7] And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents." (the sacrifice takes place as the sun is going down (the afternoon, as the day is ending), then it is roasted and eaten later in the evening (when the new day has started))

As such, we now see there are at least two days associated with "Passover" in scripture. The 14th (the "Day of Preparation") when the Passover Lamb is sacrificed, and the 15th when it is eaten. Both appear to be the same "day" to us (for we think of days as ending Midnight), but on the Jewish calendar, it is two different days: the preparation/sacrifice day and the feast day.

The second flaw in the above KJV-only line of argumentation flows from the first. Because of forgetting that to the Jews, a "day" starts and ends at sundown, it is erroneously believed that the feast happens on the same day as the sacrifice and thus it is then claimed that "Passover" can only refer to the 14th and cannot be applied to the entire time in general4 - for if could be shown that the entire week could also be referred to as "Passover", their arguments fall flat. Since we see from the above information that the Passover Feast happens on the 15th, and the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" is on the 15th, it becomes clear that these "two" feast are one in the same! The Passover Feast is the feast on the 15th, and starts the week-long "feast" of eating unleavened bread. Does scripture confirm this, by ever using the term "Passover" to apply to the "Feast of Unleavened Bread"? It sure does!

Eze 45:21 (KJV) "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."

Luke 22:1 (KJV) "Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover."

We now see that "Passover" can mean only the day of the 14th, the event of sacrificing and eating spanning the 14th and 15th, or even the entire week of unleavened bread which starts with the sacrifice and meal. So when we read in Acts 12:4 that Herod captured Peter during the "days of unleavened bread" and wanted to wait until after "pascha" to deal with him (to please the Jews, by not having a man killed during the week-long holiday), we see that translating "pascha" as "Passover" is correct, and the KJV-only arguments as to why "Passover" is wrong are based on faulty premises and misunderstanding of both Scripture and the Jewish calendar.
- Brian Tegart
http://www.kjv-only.com/acts12_4.html

Since Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are one and the same, then the use of Passover in Acts 12:4 is not incorrect.

 

[Keith M]

Much is to be made of what many are doing to belittle those that prefer the KJV.

There seems to be no attempt to "belittle those that prefer the KJV." The problem is not with those who prefer one of the KJVs over other Bible translations, but with those who become their own final authority and declare one of the KJVs is the only true word of God in English. There's a BIG difference in preferring one of the KJVs and belittling all other Bible translations, Palatka51.

 

[Eliyahu]

Since Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are one and the same, then the use of Passover in Acts 12:4 is not incorrect.

Wrong !

Always in OT when both of them appear in precise terms, they were clearly distinguished.
Passover was 14th Abib, DULB or FULB started from 15th thru 21.


Here are the examples:

Leviticus 23:5-6
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Numbers 28:16-31
16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. 17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.




2 Chronicles 35:1-19
1 Moreover Josiah kept a passover unto the LORD in Jerusalem: and they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month
17 And the children of Israel that were present kept the passover at that time, and the feast of unleavened bread seven days.
18 And there was no passover like to that kept in Israel from the days of Samuel the prophet; neither did all the kings of Israel keep such a passover as Josiah kept, and the priests, and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel that were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.



Ezekiel 45

21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten


Bible is quoted from Crosswalk.com

 

[Keith M]

Wrong !

Always in OT when both of them appear in precise terms, they were clearly distinguished.
Passover was 14th Abib, DULB or FULB started from 15th thru 21.


Here are the examples:

Leviticus 23:5-6
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Numbers 28:16-31
16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. 17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.




2 Chronicles 35:1-19
1 Moreover Josiah kept a passover unto the LORD in Jerusalem: and they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month
17 And the children of Israel that were present kept the passover at that time, and the feast of unleavened bread seven days.
18 And there was no passover like to that kept in Israel from the days of Samuel the prophet; neither did all the kings of Israel keep such a passover as Josiah kept, and the priests, and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel that were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.



Ezekiel 45

21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten


Bible is quoted from Crosswalk.com

No, Eliyahu - you're the one who's wrong. You're saying the Passover was to be on the 14th day of the month and ONLY on the 14th day of the month. If your assertion is correct, then how do you explain this instruction from God?

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. Gen 12:18 NKJV

This doesn't sound as if God is inaugurating two separate feasts. This verse indicates one continuous period of time - from the fourteenth day of the month until the twenty-first day of the month.

Deuteronomy 16 reviews 3 feasts: Passover (v. 1-8); the Feast of Weeks (v. 9-12); and the Feast of Tebernacles (v. 13-17). In reviewing the Passover there is no distinction made between Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Ezekiel 45:21 doesn't indicate two separate feasts - just one.

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. NKJV

The KJV also indicates in this verse Passover is a feast of seven days.

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

What translation are you quoting from, Eliyahu? The ERV of 1881, the ASV, the NASB, the NIV, the HCSB, the ESV, the Complete Jewish Bible, the 1587 Geneva Bible and the JPS OT of 1917 found at http://www.studylight.org are all in agreement with the KJV/NKJV reading.

So despite your assertion to the contrary, Eliyahu, we find Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread ARE one and the same. Therefore, as I said before, the use of Passover in Acts 12:4 is not incorrect.

 

[Askjo]

When did the passover occur?

When did the Easter occur?

 

[Eliyahu]

No, Eliyahu - you're the one who's wrong. You're saying the Passover was to be on the 14th day of the month and ONLY on the 14th day of the month. If your assertion is correct, then how do you explain this instruction from God?

Yes! Only 14th Abib was Passover !
Exodus 12:18 says they should eat the Unleavened Bread on Passover, it is absolutely correct! However, it was not called DULB, but called Passover! Therefore it doesn't contradict my assertion at all.

This doesn't sound as if God is inaugurating two separate feasts. This verse indicates one continuous period of time - from the fourteenth day of the month until the twenty-first day of the month.

Deuteronomy 16 reviews 3 feasts: Passover (v. 1-8); the Feast of Weeks (v. 9-12); and the Feast of Tebernacles (v. 13-17). In reviewing the Passover there is no distinction made between Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Ezekiel 45:21 doesn't indicate two separate feasts - just one.

The KJV also indicates in this verse Passover is a feast of seven days.

What translation are you quoting from, Eliyahu? The ERV of 1881, the ASV, the NASB, the NIV, the HCSB, the ESV, the Complete Jewish Bible, the 1587 Geneva Bible and the JPS OT of 1917 found at http://www.studylight.org are all in agreement with the KJV/NKJV reading.

So despite your assertion to the contrary, Eliyahu, we find Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread ARE one and the same. Therefore, as I said before, the use of Passover in Acts 12:4 is not incorrect.

Wrong ! You are very much wrong again !

You are arguing with me without reading my previous post # 55, which explained very well about Ezekiel 45:21

Quote

2) Ezekiel 45:21
As you know the conjunctions are sometimes omitted in Hebrew and it can be translated as follows:

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten

Otherwise, the verse itself contradicts many other verses which says Passover and FULB( Feast of Unleavened Bread, or DULB).

Even the verse 21 itself says fourteenth day of the month ( one day) is the Passover, then how can it be equal to 7 days? As you know, Passover is one day and FULB is 7 days, total 8 days.
Therefore Eze 45:21 does not support your argument that Passover meant the whole feast of Passover and FULB

Unquote


Read the Bible carefully again. All the time Passover is distinguished from DULB ( or FULB, Feast of ULB).
Passover is only one day, 14th Abib, while FULB is 7 days starting from 15th Abib thru 21 Abib.

Deuteronomy 16: 1-8 talks about Passover, it doesn't confuse both of them.

Again Ezekiel 45:21,

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten

I read Hebrew MT directly.

How can 1 day be the same as 7 days?

Read the Bible Lev 23:5-6 too. Clearly it distinuish between 2, Paassover and FULB.
What people often forget is that Jews had to eat ULB even on Passover, but it was not called FULB.

In OT they were clearly distingished when both of them appear.

 

[Eliyahu]

Read the following verse again.

Leviticus 23:5-6
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. -------- Passover !

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. ---------- FULB !


Isn't it clear?

 

[EdSutton]

Read the following verse again.

Leviticus 23:5-6
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. -------- Passover !

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. ---------- FULB !


Isn't it clear?

"FULB" ???

Out of curiosity-

What does how any any of the OT Scriptures read (or should read) have to do with whether or not the KJV was translated from what is mistakenly labeled the TR?

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

2) Ezekiel 45:21
As you know the conjunctions are sometimes omitted in Hebrew and it can be translated as follows:

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that all the words in black in your quote above are accurately and "literally" translate in the "formal equivalence" mode, does not the addition of this conjunction in red, for the supposed purpose of harmonizing verses that appear elsewhere in Scripture amount to adding to the words of the words of the book, as warned against in Prov. 30:5-6 and Rev. 22:18?

If not, why not?

Was not the Holy Spirit capable of giving the word exactly as He intended to give it?? Why would He need us to add something to it as given, in order to support some alleged time-line in the rendering?

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

"FULB" ???

Ed

FULB : Abbreviation of Feast of UnLeavened Bread.


Ezekiel 45:21

21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten


You are not reading the Hebrew MT, but I am interpretting it instead of relying on any English verstion. How can you discern which translation is correct, without knowing how to read the original text in original language?

As I said, Hebrew Conjunction can be added in such case by the translators.

Is the fourteenth day of the month the same as the 7days? Does the fourteenth Day of Abib have 168 hours?

Also, count from 14th thru 21st of the month, then it is 8 days, not 7 days!

It is talking about Passover, then 7 days of FULB, which is separated from Passover.

 

[Tater77]

ον και πιασας εθετο εις φυλακην παραδους τεσσαρσιν τετραδιοις στρατιωτων φυλασσειν αυτον βουλομενος μετα το πασχα αναγαγειν αυτον τω λαω

πασχα = Pascha

Which means Passover and there was no such thing as Easter then and any pagan festival was not known by that name. Every Greek text has this word right here in this line. If Luke meant something else, he would have used another word.

 

[Keith M]

Yes! Only 14th Abib was Passover !
Exodus 12:18 says they should eat the Unleavened Bread on Passover, it is absolutely correct! However, it was not called DULB, but called Passover! Therefore it doesn't contradict my assertion at all.


Wrong ! You are very much wrong again !

You are arguing with me without reading my previous post # 55, which explained very well about Ezekiel 45:21

Quote

2) Ezekiel 45:21
As you know the conjunctions are sometimes omitted in Hebrew and it can be translated as follows:

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten

Otherwise, the verse itself contradicts many other verses which says Passover and FULB( Feast of Unleavened Bread, or DULB).

Even the verse 21 itself says fourteenth day of the month ( one day) is the Passover, then how can it be equal to 7 days? As you know, Passover is one day and FULB is 7 days, total 8 days.
Therefore Eze 45:21 does not support your argument that Passover meant the whole feast of Passover and FULB

Unquote


Read the Bible carefully again. All the time Passover is distinguished from DULB ( or FULB, Feast of ULB).
Passover is only one day, 14th Abib, while FULB is 7 days starting from 15th Abib thru 21 Abib.

Deuteronomy 16: 1-8 talks about Passover, it doesn't confuse both of them.

Again Ezekiel 45:21,

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, then a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten

I read Hebrew MT directly.

How can 1 day be the same as 7 days?

Read the Bible Lev 23:5-6 too. Clearly it distinuish between 2, Paassover and FULB.
What people often forget is that Jews had to eat ULB even on Passover, but it was not called FULB.

In OT they were clearly distingished when both of them appear.

Eliyahu, you're errantly basing your argument on the mere assumption a word could have been left out of the text. That's ridiculous. Where is your proof that this is the case? We have to rely on what we have - not assumptions that something may have been left out. Is there one shred of evidence to support your claim? Is there one manuscript WITH the Hebrew equivalent?

The verse in question, when you add a word that may or may not have been left out of the original texts, can be bent to say anything you want it to say. The word you add changes the meaning of Ezek. 45:21 entirely.

If you want to argue based on the Bible, Eliyahu, you must not ADD TO Scripture. Go ahead and believe this position if you want - that's between you and God. However, I'll accept what various Bible translations give us, not a reading that could have been.

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. Ezekiel 45:21 NKJV

In a case of Eliyahu against Scripture, I'll stick with Scripture any day! Why do you persist in arguing against Scripture, Eliyahu? It isn't worthwhile to argue with someone who believes they're right and Scripture is wrong, Eliyahu, so I'll not respond further to your ridiculous arguments. Believe what you want to believe...I'll believe Scripture. And I'll pray for you.

 

[Keith M]

When did the passover occur?

While the Hebrews were in Egypt.

When did the Easter occur?

The Feast of Easter was well established by the second century. But there had been dispute over the exact date of the Easter observance between the Eastern and Western Churches. The East wanted to have it on a weekday because early Christians observed Passover every year on the 14th of Nisan, the month based on the lunar calendar. But, the West wanted that Easter should always be a Sunday regardless of the date.
- http://www.theholidayspot.com/easter/history/easter_history.htm

The Passover was celebrated at the time of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Easter didn't come until later. Therefore, Acts 12:4 should read Passover as it does in modern translations, not Easter as it does in the KJVs. Easter as a celebration did not exist until later.