Is the belief In the rapture Of Church Strongly held Still In Baptist circles?

[Tom Butler]

Here's my thoughts on this subject.....I believe in a pre-rapture tribulation. Whether or not you do is up to you. You want to stay here and suffer through the seals, bowls, and trumpets it's up to you. I plan on being at the marriage supper of the Lamb while you're down here suffering.

Oh, and for those whose churches don't teach Revelation, and all the surrounding events, times, scriptures....come to our church. We're doing a series right now on Revelation Revealed. It's verrrrrry interesting. Tomorrow's message is "A Word For Every Church."

In the series Revelation Revealed have you yet run across a single Scripture verse which unmistakably, clearly, incontrovertibly teaches a pre-trib rapture? I'm talking about a verse (or verses) that are so clear and simple that they cannot be interpreted any other way.

 

[Zenas]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 describes a rapture, no doubt about it. Since there is nothing to suggest a pre-tribulation rapture, or a mid-tribulation rapture for that matter, we seem to have the description of a post-tribulation rapture. This is my take on it and I realize others may differ.

A more interesting dilemma is whether 1 Thessalonians 4:17 relates the same occurrence as Matthew 24:38-41 (one will be taken and other will be left). I’m uncertain about this on account of the parable of the wheat and the tares, which Jesus explains thusly:

The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:41-43.

So, in view of our Lord’s explanation that the evil ones will leave the earth first and the righteous will be left, can we be sure that those who disappear in the Matthew discourse are the raptured righteous of 1 Thessalonians 4? I think not.

 

[Tom Butler]

Zenas, that's my take, too. When believers are caught up to meet Christ in the air (and those he brings with him), it's entirely reasonable to hold that Jesus and the whole crowd will simply continue to earth, and the post-trib events continue.

Here's an earthly example. Once my family went to Texas to visit my wife's sister and brother-in-law. We arrived very late, later than they were expecting us. When we finally pulled into the driveway, they came out the door and met us at the car. We hugged each other, then went right back into the house.

When Jesus comes again with the saints and angels, and catches me up, I'll meet him in the air, hug him, and then we'll continue on to earth.

Fair warning, y'all may have to pry me loose from the Lord Jesus, so you can get your own hug, because I will not want to let go.

 

[Iconoclast]

Puritans? Reformers?

Ever hear of Hanserd Knollys or Benjamin Keach?



Here is what these two most prominent signers of the 1689 LBC taught:


Hanserd Knollys, The World that Now Is and the World that Is to Come:

"This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth, Rev. 5. 9, 10. . . . . After the Saints are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection, Rev. 20. 12, 13."


Benjamin Keach's catechism:

"Question: How then shall it go with the saints?
Answer: Oh very well! it is the Day that they have long'd for: then they shall hear that Sentence, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you: And so shall they reign with Christ on the Earth a thousand Years"

Yes....I have a few books by Keach.....
Jerome where does it say that Jesus will be on this earth for the 1000yrs?
The saints reign on earth.....where does the scripture say Jesus is on this earth during this time?

 

[DiamondLady]

In the series Revelation Revealed have you yet run across a single Scripture verse which unmistakably, clearly, incontrovertibly teaches a pre-trib rapture? I'm talking about a verse (or verses) that are so clear and simple that they cannot be interpreted any other way.

No, for two reasons. 1: we're only on chapter 1 and starting chapter 2. 2. As you well know, or you wouldn't have asked, there are no exact verses which either use the word rapture or specifically say, "the church will be taken up before x, y, and z occur. Anyone who has ever done ANY study on the end times is fully aware of those things.

HOWEVER, the CONCEPT is clearly taught in many ways. Again, I am sure you well know the arguments and I'm not interested in debating the subject with you. I believe this is one of those areas where you either take it on faith or you sit around and argue about it until the cows come home, or in this case, until the angel shouts and the Lord calls us home.

I figure that either you'll be surprised or a lot of us will be shocked during those days....I believe it is the former, not the latter. My belief is that Jesus loves His bride, the church, and will take us home before the horrors of the tribulation and Great Tribulation occur. That is not a time for the church, it will be a time of winnowing, of judgment, and very little joy. And while there will be those who will live through those awful and horrendous seven years, 3/4 of the population of the earth will not. I do not believe God will suffer his church to go through those years.

 

[Zenas]

DiamondLady, if you believe in a pretribulation rapture, you are in good company. Lots of prominent pastors who I admire hold to this position. However, I have difficulty fitting this concept into other passages of the Bible, especially in identifying the saints under the altar in Revelation 6.

Moreover, a seven year tribulation where the church is absent from the earth makes no sense, other than to cause the wicked to suffer before they ultimately go to Hell where they will suffer even worse.

Finally, there is nothing in scripture, at least that I know of, that says there will be a great tribulation where the church will be absent from the earth. Indeed, Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon preaching from Ezekiel:

"we think of the Truth of God that there is to be a millennial age—a time of glory, peace, joy, truth and righteousness. But what is to be the Glory of it? Why this, “Jehovah-Shammah, the Lord Is There!” The Lord Jesus Christ will come and begin His personal reign on earth among His ancients. In like manner, as He went up into Heaven, and the disciples saw Him, so will He descend a second time, to be seen here among men. And His glorious Presence shall fashion the golden age, the thousand years of peace! Then shall the nations shout, “The Lord Is Come!” What hallelujahs will then rise to Heaven! Welcome, welcome, Son of God! How will all His faithful ones rejoice with unspeakable joy and sing and sing again, for now the day of their reward has come and they shall shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father! In all the Glory of the latter days everything is wrapped up in this one phrase, “the Lord is there.”" —"Jehovah Shammah"

 

[Tom Butler]

No, for two reasons. 1: we're only on chapter 1 and starting chapter 2. 2. As you well know, or you wouldn't have asked, there are no exact verses which either use the word rapture or specifically say, "the church will be taken up before x, y, and z occur. Anyone who has ever done ANY study on the end times is fully aware of those things.

==============sniip

I figure that either you'll be surprised or a lot of us will be shocked during those days....I believe it is the former, not the latter.

Okay, just wanted to find out what you knew about the absence of specific references to the time of the rapture.

My dear late brother-in-law was a staunch pre-tribber. He teased me a lot about my post-trib view. He said more than once, "when the rapture comes, I'm grabbing your hand and you're going whether you want to or not."

 

[Winman]

DiamondLady, if you believe in a pretribulation rapture, you are in good company. Lots of prominent pastors who I admire hold to this position. However, I have difficulty fitting this concept into other passages of the Bible, especially in identifying the saints under the altar in Revelation 6.

Moreover, a seven year tribulation where the church is absent from the earth makes no sense, other than to cause the wicked to suffer before they ultimately go to Hell where they will suffer even worse.

Finally, there is nothing in scripture, at least that I know of, that says there will be a great tribulation where the church will be absent from the earth. Indeed, Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

The scriptures say Christians will be saved from God's wrath.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The scriptures say God's wrath is coming on the children of disobedience, not the saved.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Iconoclast]

Charles Spurgeon preaching from Ezekiel:

"we think of the Truth of God that there is to be a millennial age—a time of glory, peace, joy, truth and righteousness. But what is to be the Glory of it? Why this, “Jehovah-Shammah, the Lord Is There!” The Lord Jesus Christ will come and begin His personal reign on earth among His ancients. In like manner, as He went up into Heaven, and the disciples saw Him, so will He descend a second time, to be seen here among men. And His glorious Presence shall fashion the golden age, the thousand years of peace! Then shall the nations shout, “The Lord Is Come!” What hallelujahs will then rise to Heaven! Welcome, welcome, Son of God! How will all His faithful ones rejoice with unspeakable joy and sing and sing again, for now the day of their reward has come and they shall shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father! In all the Glory of the latter days everything is wrapped up in this one phrase, “the Lord is there.”" —"Jehovah Shammah"

Spurgeon was historic premill....not dispensational pre

 

[Iconoclast]

The scriptures say Christians will be saved from God's wrath.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The scriptures say God's wrath is coming on the children of disobedience, not the saved.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The wrath spoken of here is the white throne judgement.What do you see here that links these verses to an earthly "wrath".

 

[Jerome]

Indeed Spurgeon was premillennial. It's been quite instructive to see how much the actual Particular Baptists of yesteryear differ from what their so-called self-proclaimed heirs (the new "Reformed" Baptists) are peddling today.

 

[DiamondLady]

DiamondLady, if you believe in a pretribulation rapture, you are in good company. Lots of prominent pastors who I admire hold to this position. However, I have difficulty fitting this concept into other passages of the Bible, especially in identifying the saints under the altar in Revelation 6.

Moreover, a seven year tribulation where the church is absent from the earth makes no sense, other than to cause the wicked to suffer before they ultimately go to Hell where they will suffer even worse.

Finally, there is nothing in scripture, at least that I know of, that says there will be a great tribulation where the church will be absent from the earth. Indeed, Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Zenas: The martyrs mentioned in Rev 6 are not those martyred during the tribulation, as the mark of the beast and the beheadings for refusing to take the mark do not happen until midpoint of the tribulation ( 3 1/2 years). Those in chapter 6, I believe, are those who have been martyred all through the ages for the cause of Christ....those who have been boiled in oil, thrown to the lions, and on and on through history. You'll notice those mentioned WERE slain, not would be slain as the four horsemen are the opening of the tribulation, only the beginning of the suffering to come.

The 7 year tribulation where the church is absent makes PERFECT sense to me. It isn't to make the wicked suffer, but instead to show them there is a loving God who would save them from the suffering and give them eternal life. That's why God sends the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish witnesses who will evangelize for Christ all during the seven-year period and who are sealed and marked by God.

There is no particular verse which says "the church will be absent" but there is a decided lack of mention of the church, of Christians, or of the Holy Spirit during the remaining chapters of Revelation after verse 1 of chapter 4 where John is told to "Come up hither". I believe if the church were to go through the tribulation there would be mention of them in the following chapters, instead you only read of those who will be left behind.

 

[Iconoclast]

Indeed Spurgeon was premillennial. It's been quite instructive to see how much the actual Particular Baptists of yesteryear differ from what their so-called self-proclaimed heirs (the new "Reformed" Baptists) are peddling today.

Well,
as ARBCA has adopted the 1689 confession of faith,it does not seem to be as much as you would imply.

 

[thomas15]

Well,
as ARBCA has adopted the 1689 confession of faith,it does not seem to be as much as you would imply.

Make your point

 

[Iconoclast]

Make your point

Your posts seem to indicate you have a chip on your shoulder, or are somewhat of a smart alek, go back and read your responses.....I did make my point in responding to jerome
you just did not understand it .
The 1689 was written at the time of the Particular baptists,todays reformed baptists believe the same thing. Thats the point.

 

[jimiam]

I'm stepping in here a little late of many statements, but I would like to state, "I find 1Thess. 4:16,17 to be quite clear
in establishing the doctrine, and a wonderful place to begin developing a systematic understanding of a premillenial pretribulational rapture".
I'm sure it's been previously quoted but I'll do it again.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord". 1Thes. 4:16,17 KJV
Note those that remain are those alive in Christ at the time.
Where do they meet Christ? In the air, of course. He has yet to come to earth and these vss. don't even indicate the thought. Read 'em again, He is up above, in the air and it doesn't even say anyone will see, hear, or be aware of Him or any trumpet nor angel, apart from those dead and alive in Christ. Now I suspect those who don't depart will pick up pretty quick on the fact something happened, but it don't say any of 'em saw or heard the Lord. Well, you say, "Maybe ol Paul just didn't tell those poor Thessalonians that part". Well, yeah, maybe, but God gave us a complete "word" in the things He would have us understand. We just have to ask for guidance, read and search for answers. Not always easy for us, but let's look at 1Thes. 5:1,2 for a minute. Ole Paul knew somebody would ask a question so he begins these passages
"But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you". 1Thes. 5-1 KJV
In the greek, the words, "but of" appear as peri de This term indicates a change of subject matter, if there were no change of subject it would appear simply as "de". One would be hard pressed to discredit that exagetically, there is in fact, a change of subject.
So just what is the subject now? Times and seasons my friends, the time and seaon which Paul descirbes next in order to confirm for us the Thessalonians already knew something. See that "ye have no need that I write unto you". He said that because he knew they knew what he was about to confirm for the sake of me and you my friends. Here it is, bigger than life "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night". 1Thes. 5:2 KJV Paul here separates the rapture from the Day of the Lord. That great and terrible day of the second coming as revealed to John in the book of Revelation. I got lots a more but I've taken alot of time and space so I'll let you digest this and wait for some comments. :laugh:

 

[jimiam]

DiamondLady, if you believe in a pretribulation rapture, you are in good company. Lots of prominent pastors who I admire hold to this position. However, I have difficulty fitting this concept into other passages of the Bible, especially in identifying the saints under the altar in Revelation 6.

Moreover, a seven year tribulation where the church is absent from the earth makes no sense, other than to cause the wicked to suffer before they ultimately go to Hell where they will suffer even worse.

Finally, there is nothing in scripture, at least that I know of, that says there will be a great tribulation where the church will be absent from the earth. Indeed, Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Hi Zenas! :wavey: I love your statements above and would sure like to type with you concerning them. I'm just a country boy from here in Tennessee, US, and simple is about the only way I can understand things. Sometimes I'll use one or two of them big words but I have trouble spellin alot of 'em so I try to use the cheaper versions. Read my previous post and maybe we can discuss our views on this topic.