is The Bible THE Chosen Means God Regenerates His Elect?

Why waste my time. I can do better things.....DHK

If listening to some sermons that will correct your wrong understanding is a waste of time to you, then I cannot help you......

Are you aware that two different words are used in the passage? You claim you understand it... or you do not care.
Everyone can read the english...but what does it actually say.

Stop being a sluggard and listen to the sermon....here are more.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11110485122
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=11110485918
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1170594213

Even if you choose not to listen and remain ignorant on this issue,denying the sanctifying work of God in salvation, others might listen and enjoy sound bible teaching which you consider a waste of time.

 

Your answer is pitiful Icon. I give you Scripture and you give me links. I give you Scripture and you can't refute it so you post a link to a sermon. This is truly pitiful. The only other person that ever did that on the history of this board was a Oneness Pentecostal who was unable to defend his faith without going to his official website. You are acting just like him--unable to defend your own stance.

Yes, I enjoy my Bible. I enjoy the teaching I get from it, and from my study it. I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
I know who I believe; what I believe; and why I believe it. Do you?
It doesn't seem apparent that you do, otherwise you would be able to verbalize it, but you can't. Your standard answer is "read the link provided." Sorry, Icon; that isn't good enough.

I will provide you an answer that should be sufficient for you.

In 1Cor.3:1-4 the word "carnal" is used a number of times. The Greek word is "sarkos." It means "carnal," or "flesh." It is often used to describe the state of an unsaved person. However, as you know, many Christians today live and act just like the unsaved. That does not mean they are unsaved. This is how Paul was describing the carnal Christians at Corinth. They were believers, but worldly ones, Christians that acted like the world, like unbelievers. Lets see what other scholars have to say on this same subject.

Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say this:

If you look in Galatians 5, you will find the works of the flesh listed. They come from a carnal heart and Christians can manifest the works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit listed in the same chapter. But these men indicate that the Corinthians lived a life that was gratifying self instead of God, and that is carnality--but they were still Christians.

What does Barnes say:

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[FONT=&quot]Barnes states plainly that they are Christians. Then he goes on to say that their divisions and strifes demonstrate their carnality. In short they are carnal Christians.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]The Greek scholar A.T. Robertson has much to say on this topic:[/FONT]
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What is Paul saying? He is using language that describes the unsaved to describe the Corinthians who are saved. It is a strong statement to them to clean up their act, for they are a saved people. Why, therefore, are they acting like the unsaved, like carnal people? They are carnal Christians. They like the world; have set their affections on things of this world more than on things above, and therefore are carnal.

What about Vine:

Vine agrees with the others. He addresses the Corinthian Christians as "unspiritual," that is, fleshly. They have received the Spirit (are saved), but are under the influence of the flesh.

And Adam Clarke?

You act just like people of the world, he says--worldly Christians; carnal Christians.

These men, scholars, say exactly what I have been telling you all along. Do you think that they are all wrong. Many of them are Calvinists. I am not biased here. There are carnal Christians. There are Christians that live worldly lives. Not all are "spiritual."
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DHK.
It seems to me that this should have been enough.And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,.:love2:

 

Not sure just what I am but I am not real sure that these two are not one and the same. Regeneration and salvation.

AV — regeneration 2 What is the context in these two usages?
Part of Rom. 5:10 we shall be saved by his life. Is this salvation? And the same as this part of Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, And Rom. 6:23 but the gift of God [is] eternal life. Is salvation the resurrection of life John 5:29 which is called either the regeneration or follow me in the regeneration Matt. 19:28 that is be regenerated as I was Compare Titus 3:5 to 1 Cor:15:13-19.

 

Can a true believer be carnal? What do the scriptures show?

Was Samson carnal? He married a non-Israelite breaking God's commands. Then he walked out and deserted his wife, then tried to take her back when she was given to another man. Does that sound carnal? He gambled over a riddle and then killed 30 innocent men to take their coats to settle his wager when he lost. Does that sound carnal? Then he visited a prostitute on a regular basis. Does that sound carnal?

And yet Samson is included in Hebrews chapter 11 commonly called the "Hall of Faith"

Samson was a man of great faith, but did he live a carnal life? YES!

 

My preacher preached on Samson the other day and after the service I told him that what you said is the positive evidence of my position that faith in Hebrews 11 is speaking of what God was doing through those spoken of rather than something they had.

I understand none of you believe that but to me it is evident.

 

DHK,
Now we are getting somewhere.If you could now understand these commentators correctly...they are saying these corinthians being addressed were acting out of character.....like unsaved men......in this instance of division and strife over which pastor has the best gifts. They were acting carnally here. It does not teach that there is three kinds of men. It no where says that christians are of the flesh as a settled characteristic as you believe.
Romans 8 makes it abundantly clear as well as Galatians 5 which the commentators go to.
He is rebuking them.....not describing them. No one whose life can be described as of the flesh is going to heaven anytime soon.
There are no christians that are as you say"living worldly lives".That it heretical,denying that the old man has been crucified,romans 6.
It is a denial of the santifying work of the Spirit of God.
While I am at it, I will slay another of your golden calves,,,,a backslider is an apostate.....not a "carnal christian".
A christian who commits a sin, can act carnally....but there is no such person who can be characterized as carnal in there heart....your so called "carnal christian" is an unsaved church member.
Catch your breathe and re-read the fine quotes you just offered..that is what they are saying.
Here you say:

I agree with this. So did Canady in an earlier post.
Then you say this:

Maybe and maybe not...
Dhk.....many professed christians may act like the unsaved.....yes. and indeed they may be unsaved, that is my exact point.In Mt7:21-24 Jesus tells us that multitudes will be told depart from me, you who practice iniquity.

This is exactly why this teaching as the notes in the scofield bible lay it out is heretical and spiritually dangerous.

The fact is the each of the commentators use the phrase.....like the unsaved[in other words ,out of character]

Exactly...thats why Paul is telling them to repent....they are acting or behaving as unspiritual THat does not mean there are people who can live this way undisciplined by God!

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

The links I post have or are about the scripture. I do not despise gifted teachers. I type slow,and it is easier to post good study material.

I do not mind your personal attacks,because I would rather see someone fired up about coming to truth, then just floating downstream like a dead fish.

I can defend my beliefs DHK.....and if we meet in person sometime I think you would come to see that fairly quickly.I speak much faster than I type, but more importantly if you really want to get into things I see other areas that you miss the mark on DHK....but that will have to wait for another day.

When you attack me , keep in mind that I did not write the scriptures, I just point them out.....and the links I provide for you....I am confident you will either agree with the teaching, or back off....because I am sure you cannot scripturally refute the truths offered.
Thanks for posting Vine , and Robertson,etc. they were all good links and helpful to this discussion.I am not critcal when you post a link,or a scholar ,I read it or listen to it.....maybe if you did the same you would be more agreeable.....Are you trying to defeat me personally....or come to truth?
Thanks again for this response,it does show that you took the time to look into the different words used in the passage. This was the only post you made that was edifying in this thread.

 

Two kinds of people: the saved and the unsaved.
Among the saved: spiritual and carnal.
Among the unsaved: the outwardly evil and the outwardly self-righteous, like Cornelius, the rich young ruler, etc. Both need to be saved. Cornelius needed to be saved as much as the thief on the cross.

Among the saved: Both the spiritual and the carnal need to go through a process of sanctification in their life. All do. Some proceed at a faster rate than others. It is evident that the Corinthians were still "babes" in Christ. Paul could not speak unto them as "spiritual." That does not mean that they were not Christians. It is here that you err. They were acting in the flesh, but still saved.

Do you believe one can lose their salvation? Do you believe that eternal life is only temporary? Do you not believe in OSAS? These are the doctrines that you are attacking. They had come to Christ. Here is what Paul calls them:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1)
--In this one verse he calls them brethren, a term only used to address believers in Christ. Then he uses the word "spiritual" a term also used to indicate their sanctification, their growth after they had been saved.
Then he uses the word "carnal" to indicate the type of life they were living, a worldly life, the life of a Christian who has not matured, one who has not grown in the Lord, who is not living a sanctified life. You have all three of these terms used in one verse. He definitely refers to them as believers in Christ. Furthermore if you go to the first chapter you will find other phrases where he addresses them as Christians. This fact is undeniable.

Many Christians, believers in Christ, act as unsaved men. That doesn't mean that they are unsaved. Christians aren't perfect. In fact many of them "live in the flesh." Many of them aren't "spiritual" at all. It is those type of Christians that Paul was addressing.

Your statement is contradictory. In order to rebuke them he must describe them. The people he rebukes for worldliness, for living in the flesh, for being carnal, must be carnal, fleshly, worldly Christians, or else he would not rebuke them for it. This only makes sense. Else why would he be rebuking them??

That is only your opinion not backed up by Scripture. You give a reference but it does not back up the statement you just made. In fact it contradicts the plain statements that Paul made in 1Cor.3:1-4.

The Holy Spirit only sanctifies the believer as we allow him to do it.
There are believers that struggle with sin, and some that deliberately give in to sin because they like it. They are backslidden and live carnal lives, just like the Corinthians did. Not everyone is spiritual. If you are a perfect spiritual Christian that never sins I am happy for you, but you live a lie, if you say that:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)
--Please don't tell me you don't sin. We all do. And those who continue in sin for even a short period of time are living a carnal life. If that did not happen, Hebrews 12:5-11 would never have had to be written. Who is it written to? Those who have backslidden, have lived carnal lives, need to repent, need to be chastised for their carnal lives, etc. Why is chastisement necessary if a person is not living in sin; not living a carnal life? Why is the passage even necessary?

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: (Jeremiah 3:14)
Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. (Jeremiah 3:22)
--The Lord, speaking to His children, (His own--the saved) describes them as backslidden, not as apostate. They are not apostate, they are simply not in a right relationship with the Lord; the same as backslidden and carnal Christians are not in a right relationship with the Lord.

Backslidden does not equal apostate. You are wrong in your assessment.

That is not what Paul said. Paul said, "You are carnal," speaking to the Christians in the Corinthian Church. You have that passage to deal with and cannot deny it. All you offer here is a philosophy that denies the truth presented in 1Cor.3:1-4.

You re-read them. They say exactly what I said. They act like the unsaved, but they are saved. In other words they are carnal Christians. Every one of them attest to that truth. Why are you so blind to this truth?

Who set you up as a judge of the heart?
Did Lot act as a Christian? Did Samson?
Yet the Lord said they were just. They are found in Hebrews 11, the chapter on "men and women of faith."

Furthermore, the Bible says,
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:7-8)
--This man, who offered his two virgin daughters to be raped by homosexuals all night long, is called just and righteous by God. He is said to have "his righteous soul" vexed from day to day with their unlawful deeds. That means from day to day he lived a carnal life with the inhabitants of Sodom. It was God that declared him saved--just and righteous--inspite of his ungodly life.

You are in no position to judge the heart--to tell who is a Christian and who is not? Who made you a judge over another person? You are not God.

What iniquity?
What kind of iniquity? What level of iniquity? How much iniquity?
Where do you draw the line? It is at one sin or two?
Are you the Roman Catholic priest and determines which is a mortal sin and which is a venial sin?
How do you know the heart Icon? Who are you to judge??
Have you sinned according to 1John 1:8,10. Then how do you know you won't be there?

Scofield isn't always right; but the Bible is. And you are treading on dangerous ground.

Christians can act like the unsaved. Many of them do.

Consider:
The greatest threat to the church is: "the moral outsider and the immoral insider."
--I believe that. It is a true statement. There are many moral people that are unsaved that act and live out their lives far better than those who call themselves Christians in our Baptist churches today. And they very well may be Christians--carnal Christians. You do not know their heart and cannot make that judgment.

All Christians need to repent. What was 1John 1:9 written for?
Notice the words acting as unspiritual. They act as unspiritual or unsaved. That doesn't mean they are. Understand the entire quote.

 

This entire passage is written to believers in Christ. It proves my point not yours.

I believe I have the truth. I am convinced of that. It is not a matter of defeating anyone. If I could convince you that 1Cor.3:1-4 is not a mystery, but simply means what it says that would be enough. It is a simple passage where Paul says to the Corinthian believers "you are carnal." I am at a loss why that is so hard to believe.

I am glad that you found it edifying.

 

DHK,

Yes....

No....christians are spiritual 1cor2:15
natural men are fleshly without the Spirit

This contradicts scriptural salvation,Paul addresses this in 1 cor 5:9

Paul rebukes them for acting out of character...otherwise the passage makes no sense.If there were such a thing as a carnal or fleshly christian...he could not rebuke them because they would be true to their nature as fleshly.

Romans 6 is clear..the old man was put to death ,Gal.2-3 say we are crucified with Christ.

This is horrible theology on your part,it contradicts scripture.

all believers struggle with sin.

wrong backsliders were apostates....jer6:30 reprobates
not all Israel was of Israel. You say they were saved,scripture does not,acts 7:51

Your take on this is off. Where does scripture say Lot lived a carnal,ungodly life?

You seem to have no problem judging me dhk....in the last two posts you constantly are saying things about me.
I posted mt7 showing Jesus as the judge,not me.You twist it,or do not comprehend what you read very well.Clearly Jesus is sending your carnal,backsliders to hell in mt 7.
Paul in 1 cor 5and 1 cor6 tells the church not to be deceived..those who practice sin are not going to heaven....
if any that is called a brother There are false brethren DHK...sorry to burst your false theology bubble.I can see that scripture commands us to avoid such...can you see that? We are called to make a righteous judgement.

Your denial of holiness being essential is the dangerous ground! Heb 12:14
Giving false assurance to carnal professors is dangerous ground.Paul tells this same group to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith, 2 cor13:5

 

Where do the scriptures show Lot lived an ungodly life?

Where he called the homosexuals that surrounded his house "brethren" and offered his daughters to them in Gen 19:7-8. Would you do that?

Where Lot got so drunk that his daughters had relations with him and he could not remember. Not once, but two days in a row! (Gen 19:30-36). At this time they were living in a cave with bare necessities, and yet Lot had wine. Does that sound like godly living?

David was saved, he was a prophet, yet he committed adultery, and then commanded his men to abandon Bathsheba's husband in battle so he would be killed (and he was). Does that sound godly?

Noah was saved, but got drunk and lay in his tent naked. Where did he get the wine?

Solomon was saved, he was also a prophet, yet had multiple wives and allowed them to worship idols.

Christians should not sin, but the scriptures show they often do.

 

The reference if 1Cor.2:14 and has nothing to do with the statement I made, which is, "there are the saved: carnal and spiritual. 1Cor.2:14 speaks about the unsaved, not the saved. We call that non sequitor in logic. If I am talking about dogs, and you say, "But cats..." I wasn't talking about the characteristics of the unsaved, but rather the saved.

Another non sequitor. i.e., nothing to do with the topic. What does 1Cor.5:9 say:

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: (1 Corinthians 5:9)
--What has this to do with carnal Christians? Nothing! My statement was that many Christians life in the flesh, or worldly lives. That has nothing to do with fornication. It has to do with the imitation of a worldly lifestyle. It has to do with doing the works of the flesh rather than exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit.

"Out of character" Paul calls "carnal." It is written write there in that passage--1Cor.3:1-4. In fact in these 4 verses he uses the word "carnal" four different times. He rebukes them for being carnal. It makes no sense if he does not rebuke them for being carnal for that is the accusation against them. You last statement is only an assumption made on your own pre-conceived theology which is a wrong theology and which is why you cannot understand this passage and why you reject it.

No, it doesn't say that.
For example in Romans 6:11 the verb is "yield". That is a command. It doesn't mean that everyone obeys it.
In Galatians 2:20 Paul says "I am crucified with Christ." That is his testimony; it doesn't mean that every Christian is as spiritual as Paul. Paul also said in 2Tim. 4, that the time of his departure was nigh, and that he was ready to be offered. He was ready to stand before the court at which time he be found guilty and be executed. He was beheaded. Are we all to follow Paul in this example also? I am not saying the Christian should not live "a crucified life," but I am saying that Paul stated that in the first person singular as a testimony.

I said:
"The Holy Spirit only sanctifies the believer as we allow him to do it."
How does that contradict scripture. Demonstrate it.
Do you have a TV. The Holy Spirit does not sanctify you as you sit back and watch TV. That is not part of the process of sanctification.
Sports activities are not part of the process of sanctification.
There are many things in life that cannot be considered a part of the part of the process of sanctification. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us as we allow him to work in our lives. If we sin, we are not allowing him to sanctify our lives, are we. And we do sin--even you.

That is right. It is not part of the process of sanctification either, is it?
But the repentance that follows is.
That period of time that "you struggle with sin" may be a period of time that you are living a carnal life. What is to say it isn't? How long were you struggling with sin? Struggling with the flesh? Struggling with the world? Struggling with carnality in your life? You admit that you (as a believer) struggle with sin. You give in to carnality.

Do you know that a method of interpretation used by cults is called "one word fits all." And that is the method you are using. Because a word is used one way in Acts 7:51 must be the same way it is used in every other passage. That is wrong. It is the wrong method of hermeneutics. Most often the context determines the meaning of the word. When the word "carnal" (an adjective) describes the word "children" we know that it is not referring to apostates but to believers. And that is how it is used in Jeremiah. Jehovah is describing his children, believing Israel, his own children, as backsliding Israel. And that is what Scripture says. Context defines it that way.

Surely you jest? You are not familiar with the life of Lot.

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:7-8)
--In these two verses alone it shows that he lived a worldly life.
He offered his two virgin daughters to be raped all night long by homosexuals.
--He sat at the door of the city of Sodom giving counsel. In other words, he acted as their mayor.
--After the city was destroyed he got drunk.
--After he got drunk he committed incest with his two daughters and sired two illegitimate sons.
--And you say he wasn't a worldly or carnal man??

Judging is not wrong. You judge. Everyone does. My guidebook for judging is the Bible, which says:

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)
--It is evident that I don't judge you according to your appearance.
I judge what you say against the Word of God. The Bereans did the same thing when Paul came to them in Acts 17:11. They judged him, not according to who he was, but according to the Scriptures and what he said compared to what the Scriptures said.

Does what you say (personal nor not) match up with the Word of God?

1. And I judge you to be wrong, for you have butchered the Scriptures to make them say something that they don't say.
2. You don't sit in the seat of Christ to make those judgments, so how do you know who is saved and who is not?
3. You won't even admit that there are carnal Christians as Paul clearly states in 1Cor.3:1-4, thus denying the Word of God.
4. The people Christ speaks of in Mat.7 are false teachers. Thus you are clearly taking that passage out of context as well.

And you said (speaking of yourself and other Christians) "we all struggle with sin." You are inconsistent.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1)
--That is not what this passage says, is it? It does not refer to false brethren. It refers to the believers, the saints in Christ, in Corinth.

Here is how he addresses them:
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Corinthians 1:2)
They are:
1. the church of God which is at Corinth--a church is made up of believers
2. to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus.
3. they are "called saints."
4. those that have "called upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."
--Does this offer you enough evidence that the ones that Paul was addressing just two chapters later were believers in Christ; the same ones that he calls "brethren."
--Never in that chapter does he call them "false brethren." You do injustice to the Scripture and treat the Scriptures as one in a cult would do.

That is what I have done. I hope you have seen the error of your way. I hope in future you will treat the Scripture with more respect.

I don't deny the importance of living a holy life. We should. But I cannot deny the fact that there are Christians who do not live a holy life as they should. And the Bible calls those Christians, carnal Christians, even as Paul states they are.

Self examination is good.

 

DHK,
you say:

It has everything to do with.Your view is error thats why.In chapter two which you might note precedes chap 3 there are two men, The natural,carnal, fleshly ,unsaved man......and the spiritual man, the saved christian.
You and the false idea you cling to...[you probably used a scofield bible] , have taught you this.

This I call you avoiding truth because you are not following the scriptural teaching.You have missed the point of Paul in chapter 2, and are now building theological,wood ,hay, and stubble here in 3.
you then say this:

Your trying to wiggle out of the discussion selectively pulling out of 1 cor 5 what you want to try to discredit what I have posted, but it just shows your post to be foolish. lets look at what it says

If any man is called a brother...do you see this...sure you do,but you leave it out because it proves your posts are in error. Do not twist what I post.Let me say what i say.let me say what I think.
For you to say this chapter has nothing to do with the discussion is a delibrate falsehood, or you cannot comprehend what you are reading.
When you resist the help,sermons,and articles and do this instead I find troubling.

then you say;

Well....this is your statement. You might believe this....but it is not the teaching of scripture,That is why I oppose your false ideas here.This contradicts the teaching of salvation,and sanctification. You and revmac
redefine the words of romans 8 to "wrongly divide the word of truth"

like this:

I say the old man was put to death.....you say,no,it doesnt say that!
really.......lets see what it says;
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

What are you saying DHK....the old man was crucified,but only swooned?lol
6this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

All Christians are saints,all Christians were crucified with Christ.
Your wrong theology forces you to attempt to explain away these verses.

We all enjoy Pauls testimony.But every christian has a testimony. Your theology indicates a crucified life while being desireable,is optional.Not so in the bible heb12:14

This is totally wrong.Every part of your life the good and the bad are part of sanctification. This is a whole new thread in itself.
It is not for us to "allow God". This man centered theology is bankrupt.

you avoid the sermons that explain the verses correctly

sure you do because you will not listen to the truth.

actually if you look at the verses..the parts i bolded...it says;
just Lot
that righteous man
his righteous soul.
so you never really answer my question,Lot was not sinless,but the scripture does not call him what you do.
You say you read the bible like the bereans and yet we see it was Lots daughters who sinned,notice The Holy Spirit says twice that Lot perceived not what his daughters did.

so your ideas are even wrong here.Lot had sin in his life,he reaped what he sowed,but God called him righteous.

I see the error of your way DHK....you do not have much light in this area.
Listen to the posted sermons,read owen on mortification of sin, then we might make progress.If you respected scripture as you say you would listen .

 

You do note that Paul changes topics once in a while throughout the epistle to the Corinthians don't you? That is why the translators but in chapter divisions. You have taken a passage of Scripture, 1Cor.2:12-15 and butchered it up to make all sorts of unnecessary divisions that are not there. Paul makes two distinctions in those verses: Those who could discern the Bible (spiritual), and those who could not ("the natural man" or the unsaved. If you think that there are others in chapter two, in that passage that you referenced, quote the passage and demonstrate it. Don't affirm things that you can't back up with Scripture.

I haven't used a Scofield Bible for over 30 years, and my ideas are not false. But I have demonstrated yours are false. You can't refute what I have presented but only affirm your ideas as true without any Scriptural evidence that it is true. The affirmation of a false statement as true still leaves it as a false statement.

I didn't avoid the truth. I gave you the truth and you changed the subject.

The command: "Not keeping company with fornicators," has nothing to do with carnal Christians. Give it a break.

When Paul says, "If any man is called a brother," he means what he says. He refers to Christians. He says that you take people at their word that they are brothers in Christ. Let me give you an example. On your profile you put "Reformed Baptist." The BB policy states (paraphrasing) that "if any man says he is a Baptist..." Do we reject you because you "say you are a Baptist"? That is your implication. I can't know for sure that you are a Baptists. Those Reformed Baptists that have some odd doctrines--maybe they aren't Baptists at all (sarcasm). You are simply one that is "called" a Baptist. How do I know for sure?
What Paul is saying is that if he is called a brother, then as far as you are concerned, he is a brother.
What the BB is saying, if you are calling yourself a Baptist, then as far as we are concerned you are a Baptist. We do not automatically doubt your sincerity. You ought not to doubt the sincerity of Paul.

It doesn't have anything to do with this topic. Again I ask what does Paul's command "not to have anything to do with fornicators," have anything to do with the OP or anything remotely connected to the topic of carnal Christians? It doesn't.

Many Christians do live worldly lives, carnal lives. Paul said it; John said it; and James said it. Are they all liars. I believe it because they taught it. If you oppose that teaching you oppose their teaching.

1Cor.3:1-5: "Ye are carnal" How do you get around this teaching.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
--Are these carnal Christians or spiritual Christians that James is writing to?

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:15-16)
--Was John warning about spiritual Christians or carnal (worldly) Christians?

 

Henceforth we should not serve sin!
We should not, but we do. Either you are sinless as Christ was sinless, or
You attribute your sin to the Holy Spirit, your new nature, or
You must admit you still have an old nature that causes you to sin.

Sinless?? The Holy Spirit sins?? Or you still have an old sin nature??
Which of the above is true. Those are your options. Choose one.
Paul said "I die daily" (1Cor.15:31). It was an ongoing process. It wasn't something that (like Justification) happened just once in his life. Every day he had to put his life to death; to crucify himself (Gal.2:20). That was a daily task.
Likewise Jesus said "take up your cross daily. Every day the disciple was to crucify himself. It was a daily action of putting himself to death. Why? Because the sin nature always remained. We will have it until the day of the resurrection.

Paul would not have had to write that if our old man never would sin again. But it does sin. He is giving an illustration. We are to act as if our old man (which we still have) is crucified. That way we will not sin. That way we will not serve sin any longer. But we don't always act that way. Some Christians act as if their old nature wasn't crucified at all. This is a picture, just like out baptism is a picture. We can't live our lives by pictures. We don't live in a picture but the real world where we deal with real sin. Do you sin?

It is not my theology that is wrong here. All Christians are called saints; that is true. But not all Christians are crucified with Christ. That is a step of discipleship which many are not willing to take. The crucified life is a hard life to hoe. It is a life of sacrifice. It is a life of self-denial. It is a life of saying no to self and yes to Christ instead. It isn't an easy life to live. In fact I would say that very few Christians live the crucified life--have crucified themselves with Christ, such as Paul expressed in Gal.2:20.

Have you ever heard the testimony of one saved, backslid into using drugs, and then getting right for the Lord, a person then that God used?
That would be an example of a carnal life lived near the beginning just after he was saved. Like you said, we all have different testimonies. It seems to me you don't want to recognize that.

Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, (Hebrews 12:14)
--Sanctification is a process which goes on in the life of a believer.
It does not mean, however, that there are periods of time in a believers life where he may fall out of fellowship with God. Even Elijah became discouraged. David committed adultery and murder. Moses murdered a man, had a fit of anger that kept him out of the promised land, Solomon had a thousand wives. Peter denied the Lord three times. Even after the resurrection, Peter was discouraged and was about to return to his former occupation--fishing. This is in John 21, after Jesus had come to them behind closed doors in John 20. Peter, showing his carnality again, was discouraged.

So if a Christian falls into sin, and in a moment of weakness gets drunk, that drunkenness is part of his part of his sanctification? It makes him more holy (as the word implies)? God forbid!!

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (Romans 6:12)
"Do not allow sin therefore to reign."

There are many commands in the Bible where we are not to allow sin; but rather allow the Holy Spirit to take control. We are a vessel. Will we allow sin or Christ to use us. That is the question. If we allow Christ to be at the throne of our lives, it is a Christ centered theology. But Christ does not do everything for us. We are not robots in the hand of God.

And that justifies him for offering those same daughters, just days before, to be raped all night by homosexuals?? This is just and righteous living. We are speaking of lifestyle here. He was just, declared just in the sight of God. But his lifestyle was carnal. He was a carnal Christian or a carnal believer--a drunken fool; a close associate of homosexuals and lesbians ready to sacrifice his own daughters to them. And you say that in the midst of that he was living a Godly lifestyle?

God called Lot just and righteous. He NEVER called his lifestyle just and righteous. He lived as a carnal believer for he was one.

Who is the one that respects Scripture?
I don't take it out of its context to try and make a point at Scripture's expense.