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Is the Christian Right willing to sell its Soul to the Republican Party?

matt wade

Well-Known Member
I have. Why don't you describe what you find incorrect with it? Better yet, why don't you suggest a better comparison? Or are you saying that a comparison of health care systems is inherently impossible? If so, why do you believe that to be the case. That sounds like a good excuse for doing nothing to improve our system.

If you have read it then there is no way you could have missed that each country is judged on a perceived potential. I've give you this analogy before, but I'll give it again.

Two people run a foot race. Person A wins the race. The judges declare Person B the winner, because Person A didn't run as fast as they could have. Now is that really fair? Person A ran faster than Person B. Person A crossed the finish line before Person B, but the judges say that Person B won.

That's exactly what the WHO report does. It says some countries are better than others, even though the health care in the lower ranked countries is better. They do this because they don't believe the lower ranked countries are living up to their potential.

If you can't understand that, then I suggest you go back to school for something other than "ingeneering".
 

alatide

New Member
If you have read it then there is no way you could have missed that each country is judged on a perceived potential. I've give you this analogy before, but I'll give it again.

Two people run a foot race. Person A wins the race. The judges declare Person B the winner, because Person A didn't run as fast as they could have. Now is that really fair? Person A ran faster than Person B. Person A crossed the finish line before Person B, but the judges say that Person B won.

That's exactly what the WHO report does. It says some countries are better than others, even though the health care in the lower ranked countries is better. They do this because they don't believe the lower ranked countries are living up to their potential.

If you can't understand that, then I suggest you go back to school for something other than "ingeneering".

Why do you feel the need to continually insult me? I don't believe that described as Christian behavior in the Bible. I've read your understanding of how the poll works and I don't understand it to work that way. Please show me some proof.
 

Winman

Active Member
Here is an interesting article on how the WHO rates countries for health care.

BARACK OBAMA and many in the Democratic Party look to Europe for inspiration for reforming America’s healthcare. Back in 2003, Mr. Obama said, “I happen to be a proponent of a single-payer health-care program,” thereby endorsing the state-controlled health systems of countries such as Norway and Britain — and endorsing ideology over quality.

According to the World Health Organization, Mr. Obama was correct: In its highly influential World Health Report, America scores well below the vast majority of Western European countries — and even below the likes of Morocco and Costa Rica in one index. This report is frequently cited by Democratic reformers wanting to replace the U.S. market system with something a little more Continental. But an examination of the two indices in the WHO report tells us more about the ideology of the authors than the quality of American health care.

Michael Moore made great sport in his movie Sicko of pointing out that the WHO ranked the United States a lowly 37th in the world, considerably below top-10 France and Canada (although the United States is 15th in the other index). But, much like Mr. Moore himself, the rankings are far from impartial.

The most obvious bias is that 62.5 percent of their weighting concerns not quality of service but equality. In other words, the rankings are less concerned with the ability of a health system to make sick people better than with the political consideration of achieving equal access and state-controlled funding.

One of the five factors in the calculations is “Financial Fairness.” This favors systems that charge richer people a higher rate of health tax, irrespective of how much, or little, health service they use. Colombia comes out on top. This measure has nothing to do with the quality of health care, yet it counts for a quarter of the weighting.

The WHO claims that its rankings are a tool for comparing different means of financing health-care systems, yet this tool inherently favors taxpayer-funded systems and gives the rankings a bias that renders comparison pointless. As a result of this bias, the United States languishes in lowly 54th place on “Financial Fairness,” largely explaining its poor overall position.

The rankings include measures for “health level” and “responsiveness.” “Health level” is their way of saying life expectancy, while “responsiveness” refers to a survey based on “respect for persons” and elements such as speed of service, convenience and choice — yet even in these cases half the overall weighting is determined by considerations of equality. Thus, a country with a poor level of “responsiveness” throughout the population will score higher than a country with a good level in some parts and an excellent level in others.

The “health level” reliance on life expectancy is also dubious, as it is influenced by factors unrelated to health care, such as tobacco consumption, diet and so on. That some Americans are obese and smoke surely affects their health but has little to do with the health-care system per se — yet these factors again drag the U.S. down in the ranking.

Americans generally believe that whatever the other problems with the U.S. health-care system, its standards of care are high. In the details of the rankings there is evidence to support this: The “responsiveness” measurement, without the equality weighting, shows the United States as number one in the world — but this performance measure only makes up one-eighth of the ranking, dwarfed by the measures of equality and state funding.

Also left off are typical measures of health-care standards such as disease-specific five-year survival rates. With these, U.S. health care comes off somewhat better. In 2007, British medical journal The Lancet published research showing the United States to be the best in the world for cancer-survival rates, with Britain’s state-controlled “single-payer” National Health Service disturbingly far behind. It showed that a man under the United Kingdom’s tottering 60-year-old NHS has an 18 percent lower chance of surviving cancer than a man under the U.S. system.

Of course, this does not mean the U.S. health system is perfect. There is near-consensus on the need to address increasing costs, waste and the fact that too many Americans still lack insurance. But decision-makers and voters must beware ideological arguments and rankings that falsely depict idyllic socialist health systems. They do not exist.

Glen Whitman is an associate professor of economics at California State University.

Article Source: Providence Journal, USA
 

Winman

Active Member
What I understand from that article is that the WHO's health care ratings are biased toward socialistic systems. A country that provides health care to all citizens is rated high, regardless of whether the care is quality care.

A lady I work with visited Egypt last year. She tripped on a unlevel brick sidewalk, fell and injured her wrist. She went to a doctor. She told me the doctor's office was filthy with insects crawling on the floor. The doctor wrapped her wrist with an ace bandage and told her that her wrist was just sprained. He also demanded $100 which she refused to pay because she had purchased insurance through her travel agency for this trip. The doctor became very angry and abusive, but she did not pay him.

When she got home her wrist continued to bother her and swelled. She started to lose use of her fingers which she needs to perform her job. Myself and other employees urged her to see a doctor. She did and found her wrist had a severe fracture. She had gone several weeks with this injury because she believed her wrist only sprained and thought it would get better. If she had waited longer, her doctor here told her she might have had permanent injury with numbness and loss of use of her fingers.

Now, that is a single incident and you cannot base all medical treatment in Egypt on this one case. And it is also true there are many horror stories of health care here. But if you sincerely believe that medical treatment in Egypt is superior to the USA as the WHO reports, you are in a fantasy world.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What I understand from that article is that the WHO's health care ratings are biased toward socialistic systems. A country that provides health care to all citizens is rated high, regardless of whether the care is quality care.

Bingo!................
 

Winman

Active Member
Here is an interesting article on health care in Jamaica which is rated by the WHO as 8th for level of health. The USA is rated 72nd. This writer is actually fairly positive of their system, so I did not cherry-pick this article with a bias.
I do think it very important to notice that those over 65 years old cannot buy insurance there.

Quality medical care in Jamaica is one of the prime concerns of many of my readers. Between my wife and I, we have had seven years of experiences with doctors and other medical facilities in the Montego Bay area. We have found the quality of medical care to be quite adequate, although not perfect. Considering this Third World country boasts over 1,000 people above the age of 100 one would have to say that the medical care throughout the island is more than adequate.

Health care in Jamaica is free to all citizens and legal residents at government hospitals and clinics. This includes prescription drugs. One of the drawbacks to free health care is long lines with no appointments accepted by the physicians. There have been stories in the newspaper of people going to the hospital early in the morning and leaving late in the day not having seen a doctor. Prescriptions are not easy to obtain. I have seen perhaps 20 – 30 people gathered at a hospital pharmacy two hours prior to its opening. The closer to the opening time, the more people congregate to receive the medicine they need and probably can’t afford. I have heard that some of these folks are turned away because of either a lack of supply or a drug the pharmacy doesn’t stock. If the person really needs an unavailable drug they must go to a public drugstore and pay for it or do without.

Private doctors and clinics are widely available as long as you have the funds or insurance to cover the cost. I chose a private hospital/clinic about 45 minutes from my house. I also procured medical insurance in Jamaica. Medical insurance is available from several different companies with one being the leader in the field. Something I must point out to older people moving to Jamaica; health insurance CANNOT be purchased if you are 65 years or older unless you have been previously enrolled before your 65th birthday in a Jamaican plan. I can’t say this is an industry wide policy but it certainly is with the largest company.

Within the first two weeks of living in my new home I came down with pneumonia. My neighbor took me to her doctor which is one of the many physicians who have small offices scattered throughout Montego Bay. I was quite surprised that he not only diagnosed my ailment but also sold me the drugs to treat it. I never went back to him because I didn’t trust his prices of drugs. They could have been fair but he certainly had the opportunity to inflate those prices.

Sometime later I was introduced to this upscale hospital/clinic. They have a wide range of doctors, labs, x-ray department, and an operating theatre. I never had to go anywhere else for services. All my needs were met there. For most of that time, there was one General Practitioner whom my wife and I trusted with our health issues. Less than a year ago, he left his position at the hospital/clinic and opened an office in town. We were very delighted to hear that as we could now see the doctor we trusted and not have to make the long drive out of town. There is one drawback in that now we have to travel around town for labs and x-ray facilities.

Many years ago I fell twenty feet off a ladder and landed on my back. The only injury I sustained was lacerations of my left calf caused by a strand of rusty barbed wire. I quickly showered and drove myself to the emergency department of the hospital/clinic. My wounds were cleaned and dressed but later a cyst developed which had to be surgically removed. The day of the procedure I once again drove to the hospital/clinic, received general anesthesia, and drove myself home an hour after the surgery was completed. Pretty amazing, I thought. I doubt that would happen back in Boston.

About a year and a half ago, I developed tendinitis of the knee. The orthopedic surgeon prescribed a painkiller and an antibiotic to get me back on my feet again, literally. Several days later I started feeling numbness in my fingers which I ignored. However, the next day the numbness extended all the way up my arm and I was having trouble speaking. I was sure I was having a stroke. My neighbor drove me to the hospital/clinic where I was subjected to several tests including a cat scan. All the tests were negative. But what caused these stroke like symptoms? My wife decided to check the two medications out on the internet. The antibiotic was fine but the painkiller was banned in the U.S., Canada, U. K., and Australia, but not in Jamaica. Needless to say, I have had none of those symptoms since I stopped taking that medication.

More recently, I went for my annual eye exam. The optometrist, who works out of a local optician, was concerned with the degree of change in my eyes in a year’s time. He was worried that I had either diabetes or a brain tumor. As my eye exam was part of my annual physical checkup, my doctor took note of the eye doctor’s concern and included a test for diabetes with the other blood work and also another cat scan. All of these tests came back negative. My next step was a neurologist who couldn’t find anything wrong but had me schedule an MRI just to make sure. Her suspicions were correct, nothing was found on the MRI.

You can imagine how I felt at this time not knowing what, if anything was wrong with me. It was then that I decided to get a second opinion from an ophthalmologist. This doctor has an office on the outskirts of town and is equipped with the latest eye testing equipment. In a matter of minutes she diagnosed me with cataracts that got progressively worse but all within the normal limits. As I write this article, I have had one eye operated on with the second one scheduled in June. I now have good sight in one eye.

I have highlighted a few of my own experiences with Jamaican health care. While not all of my experiences were positive, most of them were. I feel confident to say that health care in Jamaica is more than adequate to cope with the everyday needs of its citizens. Later….
 

TomVols

New Member
By closely allying with the Republican Party the Christian Right has done tremendous damage to Christ's Church. .....This completely turns off the lost just as Jesus himself was disgusted by the Pharisee's hypocrisy.
I suspect the same amount of damage has been done to the mainstream denoms who have sold out to the Democrats. Their numbers are dwindling, in part because they aren't looking for politics on Sunday morning.
 

matt wade

Well-Known Member
Why do you feel the need to continually insult me? I don't believe that described as Christian behavior in the Bible. I've read your understanding of how the poll works and I don't understand it to work that way. Please show me some proof.

How have I insulted you? Sorry..didn't see an insult in what I posted.

As for the proof...here's the post I previously showed the proof in:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1374672&postcount=38

A quote from the WHO (included in that post):

In designing the framework for health system performance, WHO broke new methodological ground, employing a technique not previously used for health systems. It compares each country’s system to what the experts estimate to be the upper limit of what can be done with the level of resources available in that country.
 

alatide

New Member
This is how the WHO describes its evaluation factors. No bias, just a statement of how they did the rankings.
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Information in the WHO report also rates countries according to the different components of the performance index.

Responsiveness: The nations with the most responsive health systems are the United States, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Canada, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden. The reason these are all advanced industrial nations is that a number of the elements of responsiveness depend strongly on the availability of resources. In addition, many of these countries were the first to begin addressing the responsiveness of their health systems to people’s needs.

Fairness of financial contribution: When WHO measured the fairness of financial contribution to health systems, countries lined up differently. The measurement is based on the fraction of a household’s capacity to spend (income minus food expenditure) that goes on health care (including tax payments, social insurance, private insurance and out of pocket payments). Colombia was the top-rated country in this category, followed by Luxembourg, Belgium, Djibouti, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Japan and Finland.

Colombia achieved top rank because someone with a low income might pay the equivalent of one dollar per year for health care, while a high- income individual pays 7.6 dollars.

Countries judged to have the least fair financing of health systems include Sierra Leone, Myanmar, Brazil, China, Viet Nam, Nepal, Russian Federation, Peru and Cambodia.

Brazil, a middle-income nation, ranks low in this table because its people make high out-of-pocket payments for health care. This means a substantial number of households pay a large fraction of their income (after paying for food) on health care. The same explanation applies to the fairness of financing Peru’s health system. The reason why the Russian Federation ranks low is most likely related to the impact of the economic crisis in the 1990s. This has severely reduced government spending on health and led to increased out-of-pocket payment.

In North America, Canada rates as the country with the fairest mechanism for health system finance – ranked at 17-19, while the United States is at 54-55. Cuba is the highest among Latin American and Caribbean nations at 23-25.

The report indicates – clearly – the attributes of a good health system in relation to the elements of the performance measure, given below.

Overall Level of Health: A good health system, above all, contributes to good health. To assess overall population health and thus to judge how well the objective of good health is being achieved, WHO has chosen to use the measure of disability- adjusted life expectancy (DALE). This has the advantage of being directly comparable to life expectancy and is readily compared across populations. The report provides estimates for all countries of disability- adjusted life expectancy. DALE is estimated to equal or exceed 70 years in 24 countries, and 60 years in over half the Member States of WHO. At the other extreme are 32 countries where disability- adjusted life expectancy is estimated to be less than 40 years. Many of these are countries characterised by major epidemics of HIV/AIDS, among other causes.
Distribution of Health in the Populations: It is not sufficient to protect or improve the average health of the population, if - at the same time - inequality worsens or remains high because the gain accrues disproportionately to those already enjoying better health. The health system also has the responsibility to try to reduce inequalities by prioritizing actions to improve the health of the worse-off, wherever these inequalities are caused by conditions amenable to intervention. The objective of good health is really twofold: the best attainable average level – goodness – and the smallest feasible differences among individuals and groups – fairness. A gain in either one of these, with no change in the other, constitutes an improvement.

Responsiveness: Responsiveness includes two major components. These are (a) respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to decide about their own health); and (b) client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider).

Distribution of Financing: There are good and bad ways to raise the resources for a health system, but they are more or less good primarily as they affect how fairly the financial burden is shared. Fair financing, as the name suggests, is only concerned with distribution. It is not related to the total resource bill, nor to how the funds are used. The objectives of the health system do not include any particular level of total spending, either absolutely or relative to income. This is because, at all levels of spending there are other possible uses for the resources devoted to health. The level of funding to allocate to the health system is a social choice – with no correct answer. Nonetheless, the report suggests that countries spending less than around 60 dollars per person per year on health find that their populations are unable to access health services from an adequately performing health system.

In order to reflect these attributes, health systems have to carry out certain functions. They build human resources through investment and training, they deliver services, they finance all these activities. They act as the overall stewards of the resources and powers entrusted to them. In focusing on these few universal functions of health systems, the report provides evidence to assist policy-makers as they make choices to improve health system performance.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
"whoever" and most people who think like him believe this country is the "A"-hole of the world and the only way to improve it is to make it a Marxist nation. Then no matter that people have lost their most precious freedoms he and his kind will be happy drones!
 

donnA

Active Member
"whoever" and most people who think like him believe this country is the "A"-hole of the world and the only way to improve it is to make it a Marxist nation. Then no matter that people have lost their most precious freedoms he and his kind will be happy drones!
people who hate this country should leave it.
 

donnA

Active Member
Have you ever considered that people you do not agree with may also love this country?
if they did they wouldn't constantly bash it and try to tear it down and destroy it, and take away freedoms that belong to cotozen of this country, they would not approve abortion and confirm homose#xual unions/marriage, both sins according to the bible, I don't see israel got away with this kind of thing, and we won't either, and instead of supporting biblical morals, those who hate this country so much want to see it destroyed.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
if they did they wouldn't constantly bash it and try to tear it down and destroy it, and take away freedoms that belong to cotozen of this country, they would not approve abortion and confirm homose#xual unions/marriage, both sins according to the bible, I don't see israel got away with this kind of thing, and we won't either, and instead of supporting biblical morals, those who hate this country so much want to see it destroyed.

Did you oppose the Homeland Security Bill that took many of your civil rights away? Thank goodness Congress has removed some of the draconian portions of the original law.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Have you ever considered that people you do not agree with may also love this country?

Do you deny the following statement?

"whoever" and most people who think like him believe this country is the "A"-hole of the world and the only way to improve it is to make it a Marxist nation. Then no matter that people have lost their most precious freedoms he and his kind will be happy drones!
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you deny the following statement?

"whoever" and most people who think like him believe this country is the "A"-hole of the world and the only way to improve it is to make it a Marxist nation. Then no matter that people have lost their most precious freedoms he and his kind will be happy drones!

Your comment is too offensive to comment on, have you no civility about you at all? I am greatly offended by your edited profanity. I really thought this type of language is a grave bb offense. I cannot see any circumstance that would call for such profanity from a Christian.

What do the moderators say about the use of such profane contractions?
 
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