I completely agree. Calvinism misrepresents God has one who compels when scripture says "love" does not demand its own way. They change "draw" with its meaning of attract by persuasion into drag by compulsion.
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Is the GOSPEL a work of the Holy Spirit, or not?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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I completely agree. Calvinism misrepresents God has one who compels when scripture says "love" does not demand its own way. They change "draw" with its meaning of attract by persuasion into drag by compulsion.
If men possess faith by nature, then it is a man's work. If men do not possess faith unless it is given him, then it is a work of the Spirit.
glfredrick
New Member
God gives the unsaved faith (in reality he doesn't).
Now with God's faith, the unsaved "believes" in God.
Now even before God can give him the faith, he must be regenerated in some mysterious way that no one can explain. He is dragged into this state whether or not he wants it only because he is one of the elect. Did you use the word "compulsion"???
Scripture tells us faith is never a work. I'll believe Scripture.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Scripture also tells us faith is a gift of Holy Spirit. I believe that too. Do you?
peace to you
raying:If you believed the Scripture you'd be a Calvinist.
Calvinists do not believe scripture, they alter scripture to fit their man-made doctrine.
lets take "scripture says faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit." The unstated implication here is that our saving faith in Christ is a gift of the holy Spirit. That is Calvinism 101. But it simply is a fiction. The faith given by the Holy Spirit described in scripture is one of the gifts of the Spirit to those who are indwelt with the Spirit, i.e already saved. So yet another cart before the horse assertion of Calvinism. Since this faith is not given to everyone, it cannot be saving faith. You know it and I know it, but you present the argument anyway. What is up with that???
lets take "scripture says faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit." The unstated implication here is that our saving faith in Christ is a gift of the holy Spirit. That is Calvinism 101. But it simply is a fiction. The faith given by the Holy Spirit described in scripture is one of the gifts of the Spirit to those who are indwelt with the Spirit, i.e already saved. So yet another cart before the horse assertion of Calvinism. Since this faith is not given to everyone, it cannot be saving faith. You know it and I know it, but you present the argument anyway. What is up with that???
Has anyone said men possess faith by nature? Nope. So yet another strawman argument from Calvinism. Faith comes from hearing the word of God, the gospel of Christ. So the gift is the truth and power unto salvation of the Gospel, the work product of the Holy Spirit. When we put our trust in that truth, is that a "good work?" Nope, all our works are filthy rags. It is God and God alone that credits our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness. That is Christianity 101.
"You make it sound like...." is a red flag signaling what will come next is a misrepresentation of an opponents position, a strawman to knock down. Straight from your play book. You game is well known.
We are all well familiar with your moving the goal posts argument that your claim of God's compulsion is not compulsion because after we are altered by irresistible grace, we willingly come to Christ. Fiddlesticks. LOL You view is we have no choice but to reject God, then we have no choice but to accept God and that is not compulsion. As I said, fiddlesticks.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements--surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb,
Job 38:9 when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band,
Job 38:10 and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
Job 38:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,
Job 38:13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is changed like clay under the seal, and its features stand out like a garment.
Job 38:15 From the wicked their light is withheld, and their uplifted arm is broken.
Job 38:16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
Job 38:18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this.
Job 38:19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness,
Job 38:20 that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home?
Job 38:21 You know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!
Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Job 38:23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble, for the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed, or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
Job 38:25 "Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain and a way for the thunderbolt,
Job 38:26 to bring rain on a land where no man is, on the desert in which there is no man,
Job 38:27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground sprout with grass?
Job 38:28 "Has the rain a father, or who has begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 From whose womb did the ice come forth, and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
Job 38:30 The waters become hard like stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?
Job 38:33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?
Job 38:34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, that a flood of waters may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts or given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
Job 38:38 when the dust runs into a mass and the clods stick fast together?
Job 38:39 "Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in their thicket?
Job 38:41 Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?
Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements--surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb,
Job 38:9 when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band,
Job 38:10 and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
Job 38:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,
Job 38:13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is changed like clay under the seal, and its features stand out like a garment.
Job 38:15 From the wicked their light is withheld, and their uplifted arm is broken.
Job 38:16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
Job 38:18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this.
Job 38:19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness,
Job 38:20 that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home?
Job 38:21 You know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!
Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Job 38:23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble, for the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed, or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
Job 38:25 "Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain and a way for the thunderbolt,
Job 38:26 to bring rain on a land where no man is, on the desert in which there is no man,
Job 38:27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground sprout with grass?
Job 38:28 "Has the rain a father, or who has begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 From whose womb did the ice come forth, and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
Job 38:30 The waters become hard like stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?
Job 38:33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?
Job 38:34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, that a flood of waters may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts or given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
Job 38:38 when the dust runs into a mass and the clods stick fast together?
Job 38:39 "Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in their thicket?
Job 38:41 Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?
Job 39:1 "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth? Do you observe the calving of the does?
Job 39:2 Can you number the months that they fulfill, and do you know the time when they give birth,
Job 39:3 when they crouch, bring forth their offspring, and are delivered of their young?
Job 39:4 Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open; they go out and do not return to them.
Job 39:5 "Who has let the wild donkey go free? Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
Job 39:6 to whom I have given the arid plain for his home and the salt land for his dwelling place?
Job 39:7 He scorns the tumult of the city; he hears not the shouts of the driver.
Job 39:8 He ranges the mountains as his pasture, and he searches after every green thing.
Job 39:9 "Is the wild ox willing to serve you? Will he spend the night at your manger?
Job 39:10 Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes, or will he harrow the valleys after you?
Job 39:11 Will you depend on him because his strength is great, and will you leave to him your labor?
Job 39:12 Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain and gather it to your threshing floor?
Job 39:13 "The wings of the ostrich wave proudly, but are they the pinions and plumage of love?
Job 39:14 For she leaves her eggs to the earth and lets them be warmed on the ground,
Job 39:15 forgetting that a foot may crush them and that the wild beast may trample them.
Job 39:16 She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers; though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
Job 39:17 because God has made her forget wisdom and given her no share in understanding.
Job 39:18 When she rouses herself to flee, she laughs at the horse and his rider.
Job 39:19 "Do you give the horse his might? Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
Job 39:20 Do you make him leap like the locust? His majestic snorting is terrifying.
Job 39:21 He paws in the valley and exults in his strength; he goes out to meet the weapons.
Job 39:22 He laughs at fear and is not dismayed; he does not turn back from the sword.
Job 39:23 Upon him rattle the quiver, the flashing spear, and the javelin.
Job 39:24 With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground; he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
Job 39:25 When the trumpet sounds, he says 'Aha!' He smells the battle from afar, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
Job 39:26 "Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars and spreads his wings toward the south?
Job 39:27 Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up and makes his nest on high?
Job 39:28 On the rock he dwells and makes his home, on the rocky crag and stronghold.
Job 39:29 From there he spies out the prey; his eyes behold it from far away.
Job 39:30 His young ones suck up blood, and where the slain are, there is he."
Job 39:2 Can you number the months that they fulfill, and do you know the time when they give birth,
Job 39:3 when they crouch, bring forth their offspring, and are delivered of their young?
Job 39:4 Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open; they go out and do not return to them.
Job 39:5 "Who has let the wild donkey go free? Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
Job 39:6 to whom I have given the arid plain for his home and the salt land for his dwelling place?
Job 39:7 He scorns the tumult of the city; he hears not the shouts of the driver.
Job 39:8 He ranges the mountains as his pasture, and he searches after every green thing.
Job 39:9 "Is the wild ox willing to serve you? Will he spend the night at your manger?
Job 39:10 Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes, or will he harrow the valleys after you?
Job 39:11 Will you depend on him because his strength is great, and will you leave to him your labor?
Job 39:12 Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain and gather it to your threshing floor?
Job 39:13 "The wings of the ostrich wave proudly, but are they the pinions and plumage of love?
Job 39:14 For she leaves her eggs to the earth and lets them be warmed on the ground,
Job 39:15 forgetting that a foot may crush them and that the wild beast may trample them.
Job 39:16 She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers; though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
Job 39:17 because God has made her forget wisdom and given her no share in understanding.
Job 39:18 When she rouses herself to flee, she laughs at the horse and his rider.
Job 39:19 "Do you give the horse his might? Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
Job 39:20 Do you make him leap like the locust? His majestic snorting is terrifying.
Job 39:21 He paws in the valley and exults in his strength; he goes out to meet the weapons.
Job 39:22 He laughs at fear and is not dismayed; he does not turn back from the sword.
Job 39:23 Upon him rattle the quiver, the flashing spear, and the javelin.
Job 39:24 With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground; he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
Job 39:25 When the trumpet sounds, he says 'Aha!' He smells the battle from afar, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
Job 39:26 "Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars and spreads his wings toward the south?
Job 39:27 Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up and makes his nest on high?
Job 39:28 On the rock he dwells and makes his home, on the rocky crag and stronghold.
Job 39:29 From there he spies out the prey; his eyes behold it from far away.
Job 39:30 His young ones suck up blood, and where the slain are, there is he."
Job 40:1 And the LORD said to Job:
Job 40:2 "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it."
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
Job 40:4 "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth.
Job 40:5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but I will proceed no further."
Job 40:2 "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it."
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
Job 40:4 "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth.
Job 40:5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but I will proceed no further."
I Agree With You!
You and WebDog have hit the nail on it's proverbial head. The Gospel is a work of the Holy Ghost. To not believe this would be a big mistake on that persons behalf.
Scripture also tells us faith is a gift of Holy Spirit. I believe that too. Do you?
peace to you
You and WebDog have hit the nail on it's proverbial head. The Gospel is a work of the Holy Ghost. To not believe this would be a big mistake on that persons behalf.
convicted1
Guest
Amen!! I would say Preach it Sister mandym but you're a woman, and women can not preach........:smilewinkgrin:
:laugh:convicted1
Guest
I have read this thread, and it seems more and more like a merry-go-round. I, for one, believe that faith is the gift of God, others do not. Those who do not quote Romans 10:17, but when they read it/quote it, they do not truly comprehend what that verse is really saying. It says that faith cometh by hearing the Word of God. Now, say that over and over 20 times, and maybe you'll grasp the context of that verse. Faith cometh by hearing what? A flute, pipe, harp, a great orator? No on all of these. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,etc.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Word of God mentioned in Roman 10:17 is more than the words a preacher says. It is preached in power, seasoned by God, if it is to take effect in one's salvation. The Word of God is a powerful sword, that cuts deep when it lands.
Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Now, here is the source where this sword comes from:
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
So, the Word that saves, engrafts people into the Vine, which is Jesus.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
So, no, man does not in himself, have the faith to believe. It must be endowed/bestowed by the Father, to open the eyes of sinners to realize their lost condition.
I hope and pray that this doesn't come across as "scattered", because of the use of many verses.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Word of God mentioned in Roman 10:17 is more than the words a preacher says. It is preached in power, seasoned by God, if it is to take effect in one's salvation. The Word of God is a powerful sword, that cuts deep when it lands.
Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Now, here is the source where this sword comes from:
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
So, the Word that saves, engrafts people into the Vine, which is Jesus.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
So, no, man does not in himself, have the faith to believe. It must be endowed/bestowed by the Father, to open the eyes of sinners to realize their lost condition.
I hope and pray that this doesn't come across as "scattered", because of the use of many verses.
Gas comes from the pump which comes from the refinery.
That doesn't make it a gift.
Faith is not a gift no matter which way you look at it.
You are eisigeting a verse. You are making it say what you want it to say. There is no possible way that it even infers that faith is a gift. My children "believe" me because they "trust" my words, that is they have "faith" in my words. Their "faith" comes from hearing my words. Their physical salvation is dependent upon me (and their mother), their parents.
It is the same thing with God. One's spiritual salvation is dependent on faith in hearing the message of the gospel. It is the power of God unto salvation. Faith is not the gift. The Bible clearly says that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The object of one's faith must be Jesus Christ. In return he gives the gift of eternal life. Faith is not the gift given. It never was.
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